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Old 05-28-2012, 05:58 AM   #21
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Oy, I didn't realize they put that poor pup to sleep. Stoopid humans, I don't know from dog behavior so I can't make an educated judgement...but wouldn't a dog nutso in a family situation be able to be rehomed with say a single, experienced adult???

The terrier was a cutie, those people just had no clue how to deal. Too many kids and a strong doggie. It certainly wasn't the dog at fault.
Yes if it was the same episode I saw the dog ended up after being pts ended up being buried in the familys garden prehaps as a stark reminder not to get another dog? Yes it's possible that a home could have been found for this terrier but training and rehabilitation still would have had to be done first before rehoming IMO
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:31 AM   #22
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Oy, I didn't realize they put that poor pup to sleep. Stoopid humans, I don't know from dog behavior so I can't make an educated judgement...but wouldn't a dog nutso in a family situation be able to be rehomed with say a single, experienced adult???

The terrier was a cutie, those people just had no clue how to deal. Too many kids and a strong doggie. It certainly wasn't the dog at fault.
That's what Victoria Stilwell does when she doesn't know what else to do. She kills them. Even though I may feel Cesar Millans method to be harsh at times I know that he has genuine love for the dog. He would have done anything and everything to save that dogs life. Very unfortunate.

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Old 05-28-2012, 03:20 PM   #23
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If a dog is dangerous to humans or other animals and cannot be rehabilitated-it should be euthanized. As much as I'm against putting down a healthy dog, if it is unstable and could harm humans or other animals, euthanasia is probably the only answer. Aside from putting the animal in a kennel and leaving it by itself with everyone around it or having contact with it being cautious, afraid it will snap at any moment-which to me-is no life to live.

Just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean she didn't try to keep it alive, we don't know what Victoria did to try and save this animal-we don't know what solutions she tried to find and attempted to do. So you can't say her first answer for a troubled dog is 'oh let's just put it down' Since she doesn't seem like that type of person to me.

Cesar is no angel. What he does only traumatizes and masks a dogs behavior*He installs fear into dogs, fear of humans*-which will more then likely either make them worse once the fear wears off or it will just come back as usual.

At the end of the day-Trainers can offer as much support, give tips, and demonstrations as much as possible but if the owner doesn't stick to it and does not work with the dog every day, if the owner of the dog isn't taught(which is what most dog trainers do-they train owners) then the dog will not be 'fixed' of it's ill behavior and will continue bad behavior. Trainers can only do so much, at the end of the day it's up to the owners.

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Old 05-28-2012, 03:30 PM   #24
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If a dog is dangerous to humans or other animals and cannot be rehabilitated-it should be euthanized. As much as I'm against putting down a healthy dog, if it is unstable and could harm humans or other animals, euthanasia is probably the only answer. Aside from putting the animal in a kennel and leaving it by itself with everyone around it or having contact with it being cautious, afraid it will snap at any moment-which to me-is no life to live.

Just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean she didn't try to keep it alive, we don't know what Victoria did to try and save this animal-we don't know what solutions she tried to find and attempted to do. So you can't say her first answer for a troubled dog is 'oh let's just put it down' Since she doesn't seem like that type of person to me.

Cesar is no angel. What he does only traumatizes and masks a dogs behavior*He installs fear into dogs, fear of humans*-which will more then likely either make them worse once the fear wears off or it will just come back as usual.

At the end of the day-Trainers can offer as much support, give tips, and demonstrations as much as possible but if the owner doesn't stick to it and does not work with the dog every day, if the owner of the dog isn't taught(which is what most dog trainers do-they train owners) then the dog will not be 'fixed' of it's ill behavior and will continue bad behavior. Trainers can only do so much, at the end of the day it's up to the owners.
As I said earlier: some dogs do need to be euthanized. But not because a person is an inadequate tv dog trainer *ahem*. The reason would be because it cannot be rehabilitated. If any dog bit my kid it would be dead (a bite significant enough to leave marks/draw blood). Period. So I understand why they did it.
I also stated that there isn't ONE way to train all dogs. I stand by that statement. I don't like Victoria Stilwell. She is ineffective. But then-- I don't like clicking at a dog and treating it because it is doing something it is supposed to do. That's just me personally. Some dogs, however, are very soft and do not require Cesar's sometimes harsh ways of doing things.
People go to extremes though.... if he touches a dogs neck he is "beating" it. Or if he pops the leash to get a dgs attention he is "strangling" it. That's an extremist way of seeing it. A stupid way of seeing it.
That is how society is though. Humanizing an animal. Anthropomorphizing.
What must be understood is that this is a show that is 45 minutes long. You can't rehabilitate or click at a dog for 45 minutes and have the optimal results. Obviously though, this is filmed over a period of time and is edited to make her look the best she possibly can...
Tv trainers are the same as tv ministers. They want to look great and make money!

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Old 05-28-2012, 03:36 PM   #25
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To each their own. Cesar's methods do more damage then good and as mentioned before-people will attempt it themselves and guess what that results in? The dog biting their owners, becoming fear aggressive or otherwise. I would never attempt nor suggests others to attempt what Cesar does without a professional trainer being nearby to correct the owner.

I believe Victoria is more of an actual dog trainer then Cesar is. While I do use positive reinforcement training with my dog-I do agree with you that not every dog will respond to every training method and respectable dog trainers acknowledge and educate themselves of all training methods and use whatever method fits the individual dog.

But I would never see Cesar's way of training as a recommendable kind, there is a way to train dogs without being extremely harsh with them, as he does. But firm. Of course a dog is going to 'respect' someone when they fear the person. But that, to me, is no way in training.

So as I said before-to each their own.

I don't humanize dog, I don't put human emotions onto dogs. But I do believe that *fear* is an emotion all beings, human and animals alike, understand and view the same.

Also, it's not as though positive reinforcement training is just clicking at an animal non stop-that's not what it is, but it seems that is what you take it to be? It's redirecting the animals behavior to what you do want it to do, to redirect attention and praise when the dog gets it right. To teach it right from wrong.

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Old 05-28-2012, 03:47 PM   #26
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What Cesar does works for Cesar. There IS an obvious disclosure at the beginning and end of the program to not try the techniques mentioned unless you have spoken to a trainer or behaviorist. If I watch Jackass and then set a firecracker off out of my bum then I damn well deserve what I get! I know logically I shouldn't attempt it but I do anyway.... well then I'll suffer and deserve every moment of it. He reads a dogs body language VERY well. That is something that can be said about him. If you don't have the same abilities then you will suffer backlash.
As for every dog he has rehabilitated being damaged. Have you met him? His dogs? His clients? Then you can't personally say that he has damaged a dog. That is an opinion.
The only thing he preaches at people religiously is "stay calm and assertive". Isn't that something that is obvious? Even if you clicked at your dog all day?
I'm not a fanatic. I don't know him so I don't know if I like him or dislike him.
I HAVE used some (SOME) of the techniques he uses and they work very effectively. My dogs are living proof. They are happy, they are themselves, they are NOT shut down. My fearful pit bull/Boston terrier is becoming much more outgoing and content. I CAN read body language and I AM confident in what I am doing. If you don't have those abilities then you shouldn't be training any dog...

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Old 05-28-2012, 03:57 PM   #27
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Whatever works for you. By all means do it. Do whatever makes you happy and works for your dog.

You are stating your opinion, just as I am stating mine.

What you're saying about me and my views on Cesar- I can ask you the same for you and your views on Victoria. Do you know her, Have you seen her dogs, the dogs she has worked on-after? Have you actually talked to them?

My views on Cesar come after seeing what he does. I can read body language just as good as he does, it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. Just some research and people will know how to read a dog's body language.

I have seen some dogs after his sessions have been worked on them, after his training methods have been done on them and it wasn't pretty. As you said, what Cesar does works for him, but I still would not say it is a recommendable training method.

I would suggest you look more into positive reinforcement training since again you seem dead set that it's just 'clicking' at a dog all day.

But whatever works for you, your dogs and any dogs you may train-go for it. Obviously we do not meet eye to eye on this. You have your opinion, I respect that even if I don't agree with it. To each their own.

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Old 05-28-2012, 04:06 PM   #28
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I agree with you that he can be harsh and even egotistical. It's either you love him or hate him..., I don't mind him lol
Agree to disagree! Sounds good!

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Old 05-28-2012, 04:27 PM   #29
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I actualy do like CM and at the end of every show he says 3 words Excercise, Discipline, Love and together you will have a true friend I also like the amount of dogs (probably 30+) CM has and they all seem well behaved. VS I also like too both have good in them. Ama Yes what ever works for you is good but if it was down right cruel (which it isn't)
then people would rightly speak out!
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:03 PM   #30
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I'm no CM or VS and don't know a whole lot about either of their methods. I'm quite sure though that neither one of them starts out with the intention of doing more harm than good to any dog they're working with. Even the best of trainers has had their share of mistakes if they've been training long enough.

I've had my share of experience in the trials and tribulations of raising both kids and dogs. Now with an active eight year old kid in the house again; more than once the realization of the similarity in the methods I've used on both dogs and kids has brought me many a chuckle.

My first experiences came with raising kids, then came the dog training. The transformation didn't really seem that different.

Both species require; common sense, love, patience, encouragement, consistency, structure, crystal clear boundaries, challenges, and praise. They also need to learn that there will always be consequences for their actions both desireable and undesireable. Each and every child or dog is a little bit different and what works for one often won't work on another; there is no one size fits all training method when it comes to dogs or kids.

I'll bet if I sat down and wrote out for comparison the reasoning behind the methods that I've used on both species, they'd be even more closely connected than I could even imagine. Many a child could benefit from having parents with the attributes and that go into being a good dog trainer. And many dogs could benefit from having owners with the attributes to be a good parent.

Hopefully both CM and VS both fit into the above catagory.
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