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Old 05-27-2012, 10:30 AM   #11
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I believe she's probably into Lassie costumes...
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Old 05-27-2012, 10:57 AM   #12
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First of all Cesar Millan IS useless... Victoria is better than him.. I have trained dogs for 13 years and it is my fulltime job. I work a LOT with aggressive dogs.

Basically the way he works will only suppress a dog, not cure it. Victoria can cure them, problem is with a dog that is like that bulldog is that there is very few people who can actually work with them. It requires a special hand and with kids in the family it is just not doable.

It is sad, but when people loose control over their dogs, it can be poor genetics, or training either way it is hard for average family with kids to fix that depending on how bad it is. Most people don't follow through to begin with with basic obedience, let alone a rigorous set up in how to set the dog up for success step by step when have these issues. If Victoria suggested PTS there was likely unsolvable issues. As far as tv trainers she's one of the best.
No not everything he does is useless. I believe he has cured quite a few dogs as a matter of fact. I don't think either that he is the "bottom line" of training either! He does plenty I'm not in agreement with.
The difference between Victoria Stilwell is that a difficult dog she will recommend to put it to sleep (over the phone even) whereas Cesar will actually do what is necessary in his view. I would NEVER allow Victoria Stilwell to touch one of my dogs. She is a moron and needs to stick with acting... Oh wait! She is...... she's acting like a dog trainer, how cute :S
Cowards way out...?--

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Old 05-27-2012, 11:16 AM   #13
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Roob, when you know how to read dogs. Sorry, he suppresses them. Between him and Victoria he is the worse one. Thing is, and I can tell you this as a trainer, most people barely follow through with basic obedience training, after 6 weeks in training, where a devoted owner will have their dog doing things 1 2 3, the average owner will have a half stable stay and barely a good recall and that's that. Now imagine a family with a reactive dog and kids, oddses are that 1. they would not follow through with the behavioral part of the training and 2. They can not read body language good enough, and they very often are way more complacent than they should be.

Cesar is actually starting to cross over to OUR side of the field, he's starting to turn away from dominance and go to positive reinforcement. But before that, he has been not that good. Anyone can suppress a dog, not everyone can train them, that is two different responses. It is called learned helplessness, the dog will remain passive, don't mean it is obedient it just do not dare to do anything cause of all the corrections it has been put through. I can still see the stress in the dog and so can any experienced trainer. If you ask a veterinary behaviorist, a dog trainer with PHD in this subject they will completely agree with me. Now will you take someone who has PhD in this opinion or would you go based on your own?

Now Katy, if it is the episode Bigboy is talking about, she did not pretend it was an easy fix, the dog got put to sleep. To find homes for such dogs are very hard, I have rescued several labeled aggressive dogs, they have been more reactive than anything and pushed to bite. Hence its been easier to fix and rehome, but I still have had to be picky and those homes do not come often. When kids are involved the bottom line is that the dog often draw the shortest straw.

There needs to be more sanctuaries for animals like that, or I have a feeling with the increased laziness in humans we will see more misbehaved dogs that will act out in all bad ways cause of lack of training and guidance. And that also means encouraged play of the wrong kind that can def set those behaviors off.

All trainers I know are seeing an increased numbers of rather bad dogs in the hands of rather neurotic owners, and if they do not train and walk their dogs the bad manners will completely take over. So what started as a little quirk, will turn into a full blown bad behavior. And instead of training, people now also medicate much heavier, just like they are with the kids. An active kid has adhd almost instantly instead of trying to work them with schedules, right food, exercise etc.

It goes across the board.. But Victoria is a good trainer, to take the choice to put a dog to sleep is not easy. I had to put it on the table the other day for a family, with a 150 lbs mastiff mix who almost got my whole side. No real warning, no nothing, and he changed when mother of family was pregnant, and he also seems now to have physical issues at age 9. Hips, possible thyroid, he is going in for a full work up, to see if there's anything painful involved but even then he will be dangerous for an 18 month old that is starting to run around. We are working on crate, keep them separated etc but if it gets to overwhelming for them.. ONE time where they slack in attention, ONE tired day, and that dog can kill their child. They can't rehome him, cause he is def dangerous for people he do not know/trust. Someone approach the family and he goes ballistic. Now he can be worked with balls, but now try to keep an eye on kid, stranger, dog and train him at the same time.

When things like this happens, it is very hard to find the right way out, there's kids here on the line, and I had to really point it out, and they know. And there is not room for not even ONE mistake. So I know how hard it is to put that on the table, but sometimes as trainer you have no choice.

I did tell them about the sanctuary that is upstate, you pay 2000 and a guy takes care of your dog for the reminder of that dogs life but, how many people can afford that?

If there wasn't kids involved there would be easier, but as soon as children are involved, there is so much that can go wrong. Once they get old enough they can open doors, crates etc that is meant to separate them and all of a sudden the accident is there.

Do I feel that it might be overused by people who are lazy, yes.. Do I believe Victoria did that, no.. I have seen her work with quite some aggressive dogs and succeeded. So if she adviced PTS there had to be something serious going on.
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:50 PM   #14
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This is why people shouldn't just blindly follow everything they see on TV, you can't blame the people on the show for people watching it and their ignorance.

People should do their own research on something before moving into it or attempting it themselves. Training or otherwise. This is also why I think it's important for people to research a breed before getting one-make sure it is the right breed for them, their future, etc. Also if they're getting from a breeder-to make sure they're getting one from a reputable breeder.

Research is very important.

Victoria is one of the few television dog trainers I like, I enjoy watching her show and think at times it can be educational. But as mentioned before, people shouldn't try things with their dogs just because they saw it done on TV. It's up to the people to do their own research before doing anything.
Ama, I agree. The problem is, most people impulse buy. The family is out at a strip mall, decide to go look at the puppies at the pet store, and of course see one that they just have to have. Many end up with a breed they know nothing about, and have no idea how to train. Most have no idea that the puppy they just purchased for over 5 hundred dollars for, comes from a puppy mill. I speak from experience. I was your "average every day dog owner." Over the years, my Husband and I have lost 2 dogs at an early age because of health issues. Both were purchased from pet stores. We have spent thousands of dollars in vet bills, because we didn't know any better. Our elder dog, Casey, is from a pet store as well. He has health issues. Harley and Scooter are not from pet stores, and are in excellent health. As far as training goes, I guess I have just been lucky over the years. They were easy to train. Our one Collie did develop SA, but I was able to fix that. Now Harley is a different story. He is fear/agressive. He always has been since day one. I have never put much faith in TV programs for dog training. I enjoy watching them though. The best thing I did was find this forum. I wasn't looking for one, so I took it as "everything happens for a reason." I've learned a lot, and continue to learn.

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Old 05-27-2012, 01:36 PM   #15
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The problem is, most people impulse buy. The family is out at a strip mall, decide to go look at the puppies at the pet store, and of course see one that they just have to have. Many end up with a breed they know nothing about, and have no idea how to train.
This really shocked me the first time I saw it (while traveling), dogs in shops you could just go in and buy! It was so very alien to me, where I live dogs aren't sold like this (you buy from a breeder, or you buy a dog that is to be rehomed from its current owner). I really do think this saves us from a lot of misery. Sure, people still make impulsive mistakes, but it's not quite so easy as picking up a puppy while you're out shopping.

I also feel the situation for the puppies in these shops is stressful and harmful...

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This is why people shouldn't just blindly follow everything they see on TV, you can't blame the people on the show for people watching it and their ignorance.
I don't entirely agree with this... While people certainly shouldn't blindly follow everything they see on TV, I do feel that the people doing the show have some responsibility. They know that's what people do. Someone with a dog problem sees someone on TV seemingly fixing that same problem in a few simple steps? I'd say 7-8 people out of 10 will shortly be trying that same thing themselves. I don't think it's OK to show a "solution" and just say people shouldn't do it too. They will, and everyone knows it. I'm not saying a TV show is solely responsible for someone dealing with their dog in an inappropriate manner, but in my mind they are certainly very far from blameless.

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Old 05-27-2012, 02:00 PM   #16
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Ama, I agree. The problem is, most people impulse buy. The family is out at a strip mall, decide to go look at the puppies at the pet store, and of course see one that they just have to have. Many end up with a breed they know nothing about, and have no idea how to train. Most have no idea that the puppy they just purchased for over 5 hundred dollars for, comes from a puppy mill. I speak from experience. I was your "average every day dog owner." Over the years, my Husband and I have lost 2 dogs at an early age because of health issues. Both were purchased from pet stores. We have spent thousands of dollars in vet bills, because we didn't know any better. Our elder dog, Casey, is from a pet store as well. He has health issues. Harley and Scooter are not from pet stores, and are in excellent health. As far as training goes, I guess I have just been lucky over the years. They were easy to train. Our one Collie did develop SA, but I was able to fix that. Now Harley is a different story. He is fear/agressive. He always has been since day one. I have never put much faith in TV programs for dog training. I enjoy watching them though. The best thing I did was find this forum. I wasn't looking for one, so I took it as "everything happens for a reason." I've learned a lot, and continue to learn.
That's true. Which is why I think it's important for this type of information to be spread, hopefully sometime in the future we will not have to worry about puppy mills or pet stores selling pups from puppy mills or byb. Unfortunately though, It will continue as long as people are buying.

Which is why people who know the truth should try and make this truth as public as possible, try and educate people on these matters so they might think 'as cute as that puppy is-Is it the right dog from me? where did it really come from? Do I have the time for a puppy right now?'

One day...

Also. I just have to say, the bad thing about these types of things is, mainly people are not like you. They aren't as great as you because instead of thinking 'this is a lesson learned, let's work with it' they will think 'this is a problem I don't have time to deal with, let's just get rid of it or stick it outside'.

Kudos to you for not being one of those people


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I don't entirely agree with this... While people certainly shouldn't blindly follow everything they see on TV, I do feel that the people doing the show have some responsibility. They know that's what people do. Someone with a dog problem sees someone on TV seemingly fixing that same problem in a few simple steps? I'd say 7-8 people out of 10 will shortly be trying that same thing themselves. I don't think it's OK to show a "solution" and just say people shouldn't do it too. They will, and everyone knows it. I'm not saying a TV show is solely responsible for someone dealing with their dog in an inappropriate manner, but in my mind they are certainly very far from blameless.
My apologies let me back track in what I stated beforehand. I did not mean that the people on the show, those who produce the show are completely blameless what I meant was they shouldn't be responsible for all the blame.

Sure. It would be best if before the show starts a message comes up saying 'don't attempt anything you see on this show without consulting a trainer first' or the person(Victoria in this case) says it before she does anything. But honestly...

Even if that's done, people will still try it(like you said). I don't know if you ever saw it but anyone remember the show Jackass? They had a warning before the show and before any stunt was done and yet still people attempted to do the stunts. Who got blamed? The show.

Same with children or minors attempting to do things they see on TV shows (cartoons or otherwise) or them watching something that isn't appropriate..the people who always get the blame are the ones in or responsible(producers, etc) for the TV show, which is ridiculous.

You do make good points MonsterMom, I guess what I was trying to say is just because people attempt it, doesn't mean all blame should go on the show. Because as you said, even if the show takes precautions people will still do it. So it's basically either- put precautions and hope people follow it, or don't have the show at all. I can't think of anything else that would be something in between that except maybe making the time slot of the show longer so they can show the whole process, the time it takes, etc.

I haven't watched 'It's me or the dog' in awhile, so I don't know if they have it, but if they don't maybe they should put a warning do not attempt before the show. Or have Victoria say it herself multiple times through out the show before she does any training technique.

(Though--while I completely dislike Ceaser--I believe even his show has a 'do not attempt yourself' before the show starts and yet people still try it )

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Old 05-27-2012, 03:49 PM   #17
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I agree, "don't try this at home" does nothing except as an attempt to wash the show free of blame - people will do it anyway, and everyone knows it. And yes, Cesar's show has such a warning. (I'm sure it stopped many people from trying...)

I think what I would want would be for a show to a) show responsible and modern methods, rather than go for what makes the "best" TV-show, and b) acknowledge that people are going to try it at home, give some actual solid advice and where to get more in-depth information. People are going to try it, most of them aren't going to contact a professional, but I believe many would at least be willing to go online and check out some tutorial videos or read some background info, perhaps even buy a book or two...

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Old 05-27-2012, 04:17 PM   #18
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Roob, when you know how to read dogs. Sorry, he suppresses them. Between him and Victoria he is the worse one. Thing is, and I can tell you this as a trainer, most people barely follow through with basic obedience training, after 6 weeks in training, where a devoted owner will have their dog doing things 1 2 3, the average owner will have a half stable stay and barely a good recall and that's that. Now imagine a family with a reactive dog and kids, oddses are that 1. they would not follow through with the behavioral part of the training and 2. They can not read body language good enough, and they very often are way more complacent than they should be.

Cesar is actually starting to cross over to OUR side of the field, he's starting to turn away from dominance and go to positive reinforcement. But before that, he has been not that good. Anyone can suppress a dog, not everyone can train them, that is two different responses. It is called learned helplessness, the dog will remain passive, don't mean it is obedient it just do not dare to do anything cause of all the corrections it has been put through. I can still see the stress in the dog and so can any experienced trainer. If you ask a veterinary behaviorist, a dog trainer with PHD in this subject they will completely agree with me. Now will you take someone who has PhD in this opinion or would you go based on your own?

Now Katy, if it is the episode Bigboy is talking about, she did not pretend it was an easy fix, the dog got put to sleep. To find homes for such dogs are very hard, I have rescued several labeled aggressive dogs, they have been more reactive than anything and pushed to bite. Hence its been easier to fix and rehome, but I still have had to be picky and those homes do not come often. When kids are involved the bottom line is that the dog often draw the shortest straw.

There needs to be more sanctuaries for animals like that, or I have a feeling with the increased laziness in humans we will see more misbehaved dogs that will act out in all bad ways cause of lack of training and guidance. And that also means encouraged play of the wrong kind that can def set those behaviors off.

All trainers I know are seeing an increased numbers of rather bad dogs in the hands of rather neurotic owners, and if they do not train and walk their dogs the bad manners will completely take over. So what started as a little quirk, will turn into a full blown bad behavior. And instead of training, people now also medicate much heavier, just like they are with the kids. An active kid has adhd almost instantly instead of trying to work them with schedules, right food, exercise etc.

It goes across the board.. But Victoria is a good trainer, to take the choice to put a dog to sleep is not easy. I had to put it on the table the other day for a family, with a 150 lbs mastiff mix who almost got my whole side. No real warning, no nothing, and he changed when mother of family was pregnant, and he also seems now to have physical issues at age 9. Hips, possible thyroid, he is going in for a full work up, to see if there's anything painful involved but even then he will be dangerous for an 18 month old that is starting to run around. We are working on crate, keep them separated etc but if it gets to overwhelming for them.. ONE time where they slack in attention, ONE tired day, and that dog can kill their child. They can't rehome him, cause he is def dangerous for people he do not know/trust. Someone approach the family and he goes ballistic. Now he can be worked with balls, but now try to keep an eye on kid, stranger, dog and train him at the same time.

When things like this happens, it is very hard to find the right way out, there's kids here on the line, and I had to really point it out, and they know. And there is not room for not even ONE mistake. So I know how hard it is to put that on the table, but sometimes as trainer you have no choice.

I did tell them about the sanctuary that is upstate, you pay 2000 and a guy takes care of your dog for the reminder of that dogs life but, how many people can afford that?

If there wasn't kids involved there would be easier, but as soon as children are involved, there is so much that can go wrong. Once they get old enough they can open doors, crates etc that is meant to separate them and all of a sudden the accident is there.

Do I feel that it might be overused by people who are lazy, yes.. Do I believe Victoria did that, no.. I have seen her work with quite some aggressive dogs and succeeded. So if she adviced PTS there had to be something serious going on.
Yes thank you I know how to read dogs. I have also trained dogs for over 10 years, I have fostered over 200 dogs of all breeds and sizes. I have also had people get me to train their personal dogs....
I know that some of the dogs he is suppressing but some are receptive to his techniques. You can't lump all dogs together and say "THIS is what will work for ALL dogs". It's just not realistic.
As I stated earlier-- not all dogs need Cesar millan. I don't think ANY dog needs Victoria Stilwell. I think (as someone in an earlier post mentioned) to follow ANY tv trainer and say they are the be all, end all would be foolish.
Whether it was right or wrong for that cocker spaniel to be euthed was up to the family, I'm not debating that. I am debating the fact that Victoria Stilwell should have finished the job she started. If that, in the end, meant euthanasia the she should have been that support system and she should have stated her opinion IN PERSON!

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Old 05-27-2012, 11:33 PM   #19
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Oy, I didn't realize they put that poor pup to sleep. Stoopid humans, I don't know from dog behavior so I can't make an educated judgement...but wouldn't a dog nutso in a family situation be able to be rehomed with say a single, experienced adult???

The terrier was a cutie, those people just had no clue how to deal. Too many kids and a strong doggie. It certainly wasn't the dog at fault.
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:53 AM   #20
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roob she did infact warn the owners that if it bit again the dog should be PTS. I have seen her work very hard to turn dogs around I remember another episode where a family had 2 great danes any way the family so victoria thought was preparing a meal that took 2 hours to prepare and cook only to find out that the meals were for the 2 great danes she shook her head several times in disbelief as the amilt sat down to thier meal a microwave meal at that :ee: I too could not believe what the family was doing. It's way to easy to get a dog if you have the money
then that's it you can buy a dog it's not right IMO Too may dogs end up being ditched or put in shelters often with a uncertain future ahead Not good and very sad IMHO.
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