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Old 06-11-2012, 05:56 PM   #131
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I don't entirely disagree with you Apples, and I certainly don't think use of a choke chain is the worst dog-related sin in the world (I too trained dogs with choke chains many years ago), however, I don't know how you can use one 'not as a punishing tool'.
Why would the proper use of a choke chain be any more of a punishing tool than a regular collar as long as the dog isn't pulling or being jerked around by it? Choke type collars are used almost exclusively in the show ring and those dogs sure aren't being punished in any way.
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:57 PM   #132
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Why would the proper use of a choke chain be any more of a punishing tool than a regular collar as long as the dog isn't pulling or being jerked around by it? Choke type collars are used almost exclusively in the show ring and those dogs sure aren't being punished in any way.
Perfectly possible for a regular collar to be 'punishing' if the dog is pulling against it or owner is leash jerking. I would suggest a choke collar is capable of doing greater damage since a flat collar can't contract.

I have seen plenty of dogs outside the show ring being leash jerked.

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Old 06-12-2012, 04:30 AM   #133
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MM can I ay why didn't you tell the neigbour
off for wacking Monster with some mail joke or no joke if some one did that to my dog and she had simlilar problems Monster has I wouldn't be happy if how ever it was a gentle tap then no problem!
Well, first of all I wasn't prepared for it to happen - who expects that? But perhaps more importantly, I can't lose my temper with someone while I have Monster with me. Even a slightly frosty tone and Monster will interpret this as "we're in the presence of an enemy", and things will go badly. And he'll remember it for next time he meets that person. And I have learned that telling people off in a cheerful tone and a big smile on my face only confuses them and doesn't stop anything. If Monster's reaction had called for it, I would have reacted anyway, but as long as he was able to tolerate it I had to let it go or I would only have made it worse.

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Old 06-12-2012, 05:53 AM   #134
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Well, first of all I wasn't prepared for it to happen - who expects that? But perhaps more importantly, I can't lose my temper with someone while I have Monster with me. Even a slightly frosty tone and Monster will interpret this as "we're in the presence of an enemy", and things will go badly. And he'll remember it for next time he meets that person. And I have learned that telling people off in a cheerful tone and a big smile on my face only confuses them and doesn't stop anything. If Monster's reaction had called for it, I would have reacted anyway, but as long as he was able to tolerate it I had to let it go or I would only have made it worse.
That's what I mean so did you have a quite friendly word with your neigbour? While Monster did react slightly was this ok? I don't think Nipper would have reacted but probably run off! If she had growled etc I would have said to the person do you mind my dog doesn't like this and neither should she tolerate it. You even stated if you had raised your voice then Monster would have reacted so the problems still exist. If I had approached your dog and say I was going to stroke/pet your dog with your permission I would first hold my hand out flat and let the dog sniff me I would never try and pat the head for obvious reasons!! Do you think he will do it again next time he sees Monster?
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Old 06-13-2012, 02:15 AM   #135
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While I don't agree with EVERYTHING millan spoon feeds to his audience, I agree with some-- definitely more then victoria stilwell. Maybe I'm "barbaric" but I dont believe clicking at a psychotically aggressive dog will do anything...
Then I don't want my dog shut down and without personality.....

So, are you suggesting that clicker trained dogs are shut down and without personality? I'd have to vehemently disagree. My experience is the opposite. I've also found that using operant and classical conditioning for aggressive dogs works much better than fighting with them, threatening them, hissing at them or poking them. I know I've made progress with dogs who developed problems because their owners tried to emulate Cesar Millan. I think the important thing to realize is that Millan, Stilwell, and now Justin Silver are just hot and sexy tee vee celebs. If you want to actually know about dog training, there are many real and knowledgable dog trainers out there. Most of them don't have the eye candy factor going for them though.
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Old 06-13-2012, 07:28 AM   #136
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I think personaly people watch these shows and try it out ofr them selves even though there are on screen warning that tell you to consult with a trainer first. So those who don't will often get timings wrong or deliver the correction in the wrong way Don't knock the trainers is what I say. And while I haven't used clicker training on Nipper I too don't believe it will shut a dog down where as a shock collar certainly can IMO
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Old 06-13-2012, 07:33 AM   #137
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I don't see how any method when used properly would cause a dog to shut down...esp. clicker training....

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Old 06-13-2012, 08:01 AM   #138
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Some methods though could ruin a dog if used Such as beating your dog sure do it enough and you dog will do what you want but it won't do it because it feels safe to do so, it will do it out of fear so there's one example. Even with a stuborn breed like a SBT there is absolultely no need for harsh or adverse training methods IMO Kindness and firm clear commands is better And that's the way I train! You set boundaries what ever they might be and you stick to them!!! If you don't the dog could end up being confused. And often owners will think it's the dogs fault as he/she should know better? How can they know unless we show/tell them!
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