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Unread 07-25-2007, 11:53 AM   #21
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I found a site that I think does a good job of presenting the differing views on "What is a Pit Bull?" and "Are they or are they not the same as AmStaffs?". It goes on for several pages but if you are confused as to whether or not there is a differnce this might be helpful.
http://www.workingpitbull.com/amstaffpit.htm
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Unread 02-06-2008, 01:01 PM   #22
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really good information, never knew any of this stuff b4 i joined this site a few days ago.

gr8 site with gr8 ppl and gr8 info!!!!!!!!
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Unread 02-06-2008, 07:40 PM   #23
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3 main breeds which fall under the term "Pit Bull" the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. All 3 can be considered the "same" yet distinctly different off shoots of the original Bull and Terriers.

For someone to say they are exactly the same with only a different name I’d have to question their knowledge on the breed and how much experience they have.

First review history
The ancestors of these dogs were
Bulldogs – a type of dog, not a breed, one defined by function. These dogs were used as an aid to hold bulls and also for the blood sport of bull baiting.
Terrier – again a type, terriers were bred to kill small prey animals and vermin, most often used to keep rats out of feed/grains. They were also used on large/tougher animals. Some terriers thought to be used in the creation of Pit Bulls include the English White Terrier, Black and Tan Terrier and the Blue Paul Terrier.

Bull and Terrier crosses proved to be powerful, tenacious, determined, intelligent and with agility and quickness.These dogs were used for blood sports like bull baiting, ratting competitions and pit fights. These dogs were imported into America for pit fighting. They bred a dog that was unwillingly to quit, the attribute they sought was gameness. There was variance in type, for the dogs were not equal percentages of bull and terrier nor were they bred for looks. Some such as Grand Champion Richmond bears resemblance to old type Bull Terriers.

The foundation of the APBT lies with
GR CH Richmond (8xw)
CH Pilot who was an English import, he is seen in nearly all pedigrees today, he sired several dogs that Con Feeley owned.
Colby’s Galtie who was the son of Irish imports, he can be seen in many modern day pedigrees which is true of many early Colby dogs.
The Gas House Dog (McDonald’s Grip)
The Gas House Bitch (Sweeny’s Fly)
Galvin’s Pup (10xw)
Burke’s Spring (9xw)
And many others

AKC did not want to recognize the APBT, so the UKC was started in 1898 to exclusively register the breed. The dogs although registered were kept working dogs, mainly still pit fighting dogs. UKC held matches and dogs that became UKC CH were fighting CH and not conformation CH.

In 1395 the AKC decided that it would recognized the APBT but under the name Staffordshire Terrier. In 1936 the 1st APBT was AKC reg., her name was Wheeler's Black Dinah. Lucenay’s Peter who played Petey in the Lil Rascals was also dual reg., he was a son of GR CH Tudor’s Black Jack 16xw. Colby’s Primo was AKC and said to be used for the AKC AST standard. Several other dogs were also AKC registered. In 1972 the AKC renamed them American Staffordshire Terrier.

In 1935 the Kennel Club (England) also recognized the SBT as a breed.

So began the difference in breeding, the SBT and the AST would be bred almost exclusively for conformation while the APBT would be for pit fighting/work.

Size difference
SBT 28-38lbs males and 24-34lbs females
APBT desirable weight 35-60lbs for males and 30-50lbs for females
AST is to be the largest of the 3 with sources stating males 55-70lbs & 17-19” and females 40-55lbs & 17-18”


Different builds for each. The SBT almost looks like a miniature AST in build/appearance. The APBT should be more proportionate in weight/height then the SBT and the AST. The AKC says say the AST should be proportionate in weight to height but their proportions are a bit different. They are shorter yet heavier then the APBT and usually longer in body, they seem to have more of a flat back/less roach then most APBT, they also have a more distinct typy appearance, especially in the head. Many AST have a larger head with more pronounced jaws and somewhat shorter muzzle, there are still more classic AST that have the more “terrier” type head but it is very easily recognized as AST, it lends more to the look of the original staffs vs the more modern AST. Some of those few preserving this type have also preserved some working ability within the breed although not the exact same as the APBT. The APBT can be larger/smaller then the desired weight but must still be balanced, a 25lbs dog or a 70lbs dog should always have the same balance correct balance. Many modern AST are running 60-90lbs regularly with a few who still remain in the 40-50lbs and are of classic type. There are some larger APBTs but many have a lot of AST blood and are simply from dual reg. stock.

Another difference is the temperament and drives, while there are some AST that still have a drive to work most of it has been lost as with other AKC breeds, there are but a few who wish to preserve this in their lines. APBTs tend to have a higher prey drive and be dog aggressive, while AST can have some prey drive and a few might be dog aggressive much of it has been bred out. When you consider that most AST have been bred for appearance for about 70yrs with little regard to working ability and APBTs were bred to work/fight you are going to have different temperament/drive levels. The ADBA started in 1909 but like UKC was used to register pit stock and didn’t start conformation shows until 1977, so you are talking about 30yrs of being shown. Still while the dogs were being shown they were either pit fighting dogs or working dogs, unlike AKC dogs who were show only.

Registration
The AKC is a closed registry; therefore you can only register AST with AKC registered parents. This is for ANY breed, no dog can be AKC registered unless their parents were with the exception of dogs of recognized FCI foreign registries.

The UKC will still accept the AST for register which is why many of the UKC dogs are either AST or mostly AST. Many of the dogs competing have staff type with a few exceptions. This evolution happened over time. The UKC competition is very inconsistent, you can see an AST win, an old APBT win or even an overdone or AmBully win. UKC will accept breeds of many legit registries for register.

The ADBA will also accept AST but it is less common to see them, there are a few dogs of AST blood ADBA reg. and even some AmBullies but it is not normal to see them compete and certainly not normal for them to win.

There is variation in APBTs depending on bloodlines and breeder goals. There are AST breeders who would never bred out to an APBT and there are APBT who would never ever cross their dogs with AST. There is very little point in doing this unless it is to improve show stock. Some want to do this as an experiment needlessly just to see what they can produce. There are show breeders either AST/APBT or those with the strictly show APBT which cross back into working APBT to gain whatever has been lost in the show lines. The person might want to have a dog that will work so use the working APBT to breed the drives back in. Other reasons might be overall structure and conformation; some of the show dogs have lost a lot over the years so breeders go back to working dogs for better laybacks, shoulders, forearms - front ends. The strictly show type tend to have a problems with straight shoulders. With the structure diminished in the show dogs they refresh their blood with working dogs, especially if they wish to do weight pull, agility, ect.

There are other “pit bull” off shoots such as the American Bully which is more like the English Bulldog version – lack of health, function, structure, ect, a lot of these dogs have been mixed and others have simply had their phenotype altered for a certain look/structure. Oklahoma Bulldog which are large pulling dogs, many of which people have mixed in other breeds and others which have been bred for the large size.

In the AST there are still classic AST which are leaner and more balanced, some even able to perform.

In the APBT you have the strictly show type, the show/working dogs, and the strictly working dogs. Which will vary in how they look/act too.

You have some APBTs bloodlines with AST in the pedigree that still maintain the classic type and working ability. Such as Falins or Villines.

You have some APBTs with SBT in the pedigree that do the same like Willhe Make It.

Most of the foundation of American Bully is in AST blood with very little APBT, but they do not represent the AST nor are they APBT. They are a yet another “breed apart” although some still referred to and registered as APBT they now how their own registry the ABKC.

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Unread 02-06-2008, 08:08 PM   #24
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Photos to help illustrate some of the visual difference.

American Staffordshire Terrier


Jolly Blueguard An AST born in 1950


This is his great grandson heavier in type


White Rock Jet Bomber born 1974

A lot of the earlier AST, like Jolly Blueguard, Our Girl Teenie and such remind me of the Black Jack dogs (of which appears in their pedigrees) but over some time they were bred away from the classis pit type and the looks of their pit dog ancestors like Black Jack, Tige and others.

Some more modern AST as time progressed.

A York dog. This angle shows the length in the body as compared to height and the heaviness in frame.




The above 2 are a couple of Gaff dogs, heavy frame, shorter and slightly longer then tall.

The modern AST is typically a heavier dog then the ones of old and shorter in height, which leaves them being more bulky and less balanced then an APBT.

Some breeders have worked to maintain the classic type. Such as Hartagold Kennels did. While the dogs are still easily recognized as AST by body type they are a classic and athletic type.

18” 48lbs. Many other AST are about the same height but range from 60-90lbs.

An original York dog



Compared to Modern York

As you can see some change with time, a few hold true.

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Unread 02-06-2008, 08:12 PM   #25
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American Pit Bull Terrier
You can compare these older APBTs to AST from the same time and see some difference.

CH Chinaman (born 1977) 52lbs


CH Bo (born 1971) 50lbs


Bolio (born 1969) 45lbs


CH Jeep (born 76) 45lbs

Then to the modern APBTs of which are show (and working) dogs


GR CH (born 1993) 48lbs – going back to Cloue/OFRN/Bullyson


CH female/show male (born 1999) in the 40s - going back to Clouse/OFRN/Maloney/Carver/Eli


CH male 48lbs -Sorrells


CH male –Yellow/Bolio/Tomstone with a touch of Jeep/Rascal


female (born 2005) 38lbs going back to Clouse/OFRN/Maloney/Carver/Eli


CH male (born 1999) 76lbs Although very large APBT he is supremely proportionate. Heavy in OFRN blood

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Unread 02-06-2008, 08:33 PM   #26
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Thanks for the work to get all the pics. Always interesting to see pictures of breeds as they developed.
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Unread 02-12-2008, 05:50 AM   #27
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Thats some nice info spicey, some additional information the APBT was registered with the AKC before 1936, actually they were registered with the AKC at the same time that the UKC was formed.

Heres a few dogs that were AKC registered before 1936 there are many more.

Name/ AKC rego #/ D.O.B./ Sire&Dam

Robinsons Paddy, 62380, 1898-11-08, Bob tailed bob /Pansy
Sandoz Flo, 206995, 1915-05-15, Bunch/Nora
Naimour, 62381, 1899-11-26, Bob tailed bob /Pansy
Jack the ripper, 107570, 1903-02-02, Tige/Daisy
Corbett´s Paddy, 158537, 1908-06-27, Pincher/Rhody
Colby´s Spry, 139152, 1907-12-01, Pincher/Fanny
Plunger, 107849, 1906-04-02, Pincher/Bess
Colby´s Tim, 136015, 1905-08-10, Tige/Mag
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Unread 02-12-2008, 12:26 PM   #28
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The official "pure bred" history is interesting, but the truth is, at least in the NW USA, the term "pit bull" refers to any dog that MIGHT have any of the bull terriers somewhere in their pedigree.

Most of the dogs that were bred for fighting, are NOT pure breds of any kind. People try to breed for "better" fighting dogs and do what they can to make dogs bigger and stronger, etc.

I tell people who will understand that Smokey is a lab/pit mix. He's from a shelter, and I couldn't tell you exactly what his breeding was, but he has a brindle face and legs, a pure white chest and black back and sides. If I could paint him all black, most folks wouldn't know he wasn't a lab, but those who know what to look for could still tell the difference.

He's got larger, more powerful jaws than a lab, and when he yawns, his head basically splits in half, and my husband's forearm fits neating inside his mouth. He also has a broader chest than most labs and is very well muscled (we keep joking about turning him into a draft dog).

From what we know of his history, we are pretty certain he was bred to be a fighting dog, but didn't have the right temperment to be TRAINED into it.

I have absolutely no fear of Smokey ever hurting me, or anyone - unless they were actually attacking me, which I'm okay with. Nor do I fear any staffie or staffie mix. Every one I have ever met has been full of sweetness and love - and that includes a beautiful girl with a spiked collar, standing outside the mall with her large, black male owner, both looking all tough. When I asked if I could pet her (you should have seen the look on his face) she was all head butts and kisses.
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Unread 02-12-2008, 01:41 PM   #29
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I was always under the Impression the Staffy is a Bigger dog.. Pitbulls are typically a lot thinner then a staffy.. *Except for the breeders that are known for breeding BIG Pitties*

:-/

And I was under the impression that a mastiff was breed to a Pittie.. to make a Staffy.. so that is why they are bigger in size and typically.. "Bulkier" then a pittie. I have never found a Pittie NORMALLY that is as big as say My Staffy. *In bulk* CEPT A cpl Lines I know of that breed to have Bulky and Thick Pitties. *Like my old neighbors Pitt*
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Unread 02-12-2008, 04:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PopeyeDogz View Post
Thats some nice info spicey, some additional information the APBT was registered with the AKC before 1936, actually they were registered with the AKC at the same time that the UKC was formed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PopeyeDogz View Post

Heres a few dogs that were AKC registered before 1936 there are many more.

Name/ AKC rego #/ D.O.B./ Sire&Dam

Robinsons Paddy, 62380, 1898-11-08, Bob tailed bob /Pansy
Sandoz Flo, 206995, 1915-05-15, Bunch/Nora
Naimour, 62381, 1899-11-26, Bob tailed bob /Pansy
Jack the ripper, 107570, 1903-02-02, Tige/Daisy
Corbett´s Paddy, 158537, 1908-06-27, Pincher/Rhody
Colby´s Spry, 139152, 1907-12-01, Pincher/Fanny
Plunger, 107849, 1906-04-02, Pincher/Bess
Colby´s Tim, 136015, 1905-08-10, Tige/Mag


I do believe that these dogs were recognized as simply Bull Terriers, many APBTs were prior to 1936. A lot of people don't realize that the APBT and the Bull Terrier are also almost one in the same. Now they are 2 very different types and yes different breeds but early on they were all the same dogs, without name no APBT, no AST, no BT, no SBT no Boston Terrier, ect. They were bull and terrier dogs is all. I've seen several APBTs that were AKC registered as Bull Terriers before 1936 and even called Bull Terrier by owners.

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