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Old 03-22-2007, 07:58 PM   #1
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I decided to post this in puppies since all of mine are under a year old and this is mainly about my oldest and my youngest...
coco has basically been our #1 since she was our first pup and she got alot of attention before cainan came along. When he did coco was completely motherly, wouldnt scare him, comforted him the best she could and she was only about 5 or 6 months old when we got him.
Now there's corona, from the minute we brought her home coco malled her, sometimes it actually scared her to the point where as soon as coco and cainan started get rowdy, she'd cower under my legs and just watch with her tail between her legs and ears as far back as they could go.
Right from the get go with cainan and coco, cainan was the dominant one, even though coco wouldnt allow him to mount her all the way, she stilled bowed down to him and allowed him to eat before her and drink before her and showed all the signs of cainan being the alpha in our small pack!
since coco has gotten so much bigger than cainan(about 2 or 3 inches taller) it seems as though she is the dominant one, she rules the roost. Coco now wont stop mounting cainan and he allows her too...he used to get very angry about anyone being on top of him, even if it was andy or I just play wrestling and he'd get aggressive with us or even coco.
Now he lets coco do it with no signs of changing...
But anyways my main concern is Corona! Coco seems to dislike her, but only during certain times of the day!
In the morning coco will play with corona after they wake up, and after they eat they will, and even sometimes in the evenings they'll wrestling and wagg their tails and just have a wee ol time! But my concern is, whenever corona gets to coco(who would be laying down) coco will growl and get up and move, or even when corona walks by her(not even attempting to look at her, or touch her, or she'll be 2 feet away) and she'll growl louder then get up and move!
It makes me sad because it kinda seems as though corona is the outcast! cainan loves her to death but loves to play with coco more.
Corona seems to play off by herself more then anything because they dont include her.
Im affraid that coco's slight signs of aggression towards corona will escalate with age!
Does anyone else think this will happen? or have any advice for me with maybe helping coco cope with the fact SHE HAS TO LIVE WITH HER SISTER!!
im not saying they always leave her out, but from get go with cainan it was like he was coco's baby and corona is not!
just weird to me! i want corona to be included more and i want coco to accept her more!
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Old 03-22-2007, 09:40 PM   #2
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Two female dogs together can be a problem, especaily with a male dog there as well. One of the females is going to fight for the alpha position and she will constantly remind the other female she is " boss " and no one better mess with her.

You can try getting ahold of a behaviourist and ask what you can do to aleviate the situation because as you suspect it can and probably will escalate and it can get much more ugly.

Best wishes.

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Old 03-22-2007, 09:47 PM   #3
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Two female dogs together can be a problem, especaily with a male dog there as well. One of the females is going to fight for the alpha position and she will constantly remind the other female she is " boss " and no one better mess with her.

You can try getting ahold of a behaviourist and ask what you can do to aleviate the situation because as you suspect it can and probably will escalate and it can get much more ugly.

Best wishes.
thanks, i will def. be doing that!
i also am curious how to get her included more? is there anything i can do to include her in their play? i just feel bad for her when they dont play with her!
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Old 03-22-2007, 09:55 PM   #4
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Don't feel bad it is dog behaviour at work here. I have one horse out of my 6 that is at the bottom of the pecking order and she stands by herself, eats alone at time and she is the sweetest, so I spoil her sometimes and sneak a apple into her food bucket or I give her just plain attention. She is not always the outcast but most of the time and it is just herd dynamics at play.

Play with her more, take three toys, throw the other two dogs then throw hers the other way. Take treats with you and get their attention with them if things start to heat up a bit, make them all sit and once sitting praise and treat. I would also ask the behaviourist to help you do basic training with them.


One thing I forgot to ask is--- Are they fixed yet ? If not get them fixed ASAP, at this young age it can help.

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Old 03-22-2007, 10:08 PM   #5
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I am not sure what the age difference is with your dogs, but as they are all immature at present you can expect a bit of unstable 'pack' structure for a while yet. Sounds to me as if your youngest bitch is being given a very normal and clear message that she needs to be respectful of the currently dominant bitch.

I agree with Dobermans you can't make the other dogs include her more. Whilst the behaviour you have described sounds very normal at this stage I do agree that it could well escalate as the younger bitch grows older and perhaps starts to test boundaries and challenge for position. I would monitor the situation, and take the precaution of removing toys or bones etc when you are not at home or actively supervising.

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Old 03-22-2007, 10:35 PM   #6
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Coco is the only one that is spayed! I do not intend on spaying/neutering corona nor cainan! If corona is too big for akc "standards" when she is full grown ill probably get her spayed.
But she is too young to see what her height and weight will be.
I kinda am basing it off her mother, grandmother and aunt...which we all there when i picked her up. They were fairly good size but im not an expert at eyeing height, plus they were all out of shape due to past breeding and not being worked out to get back into shape!
(i know it sounds like a puppy mill but it wasnt like that) the guy was a farmer and didnt have a whole lot of time to work them out enough to get them back in shape to where they need to be. They were heavy but not huge!
Cainan is on the PERFECT track for size, stature ect. I just need to get him weighed, it's been a while since he's been weighed but all else is going perfect! just need to get him into some agility and i am going to start him in flyball in about 2 months!
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Old 03-23-2007, 07:05 AM   #7
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While I think it is pack related I also think that since Coco is spayed she may feel that she has to prove her postion even moreto the intact female, Corona.

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Old 03-23-2007, 08:16 AM   #8
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While I think it is pack related I also think that since Coco is spayed she may feel that she has to prove her postion even moreto the intact female, Corona.
That is exactly what I think. Especially if Corona is coming into season the dominance will rise. Remember- females do not know they are spayed. All she she is knows is that she is the one coming in. In a wolf pack only the dominant female would breed.
Dominance starts way before an arguement. The arguement is just the excallation of one dog not taking the pack position another dog tried to assign.
What I do is I do everything in a order- it never changes. Ever.. I feed, water, walk, put on leashes, brush, give cookies or treats, first out the door everything is in the EXACT ORDER.. Its like one big long words- Hottie-Femka-Zubin-Galina... I have to keep it in this order as no way could Hottie, although he thinks he is all boy, he is disabled enough that no way could he not get hurt if there was a fight between Zubin and Hottie. Zubin is much more agile and bigger.
Also- watch your youngers ones posture about the dominant dog. When a subdominant dog raises their heads with stiffen tail, or puts their face in the domiant dog- do not wait for the growl from the dominant dog. You scold the lower one in the pack. That seems backwards to you to not scold the other one- but if the dominant dog sees YOU WILL CORRECT the other dog- they are less likely to take the step.
Cocobean- remember what happened with Femka and Zubin when he first came??? At first they got along great. Then week 2 hit. Femka started charging zubin- and she meant it! In total desperation, I called the rescue as we were trying to protect our show puppy. They told me the same thing I just typed- if we watched zubin he was doing things that maybe to him he didnt mean any harm- to Femka she saw him trying to take her position in the pack. Plus being a puppy- having to feed an extra time, and go out extra times, she saw we were giving him more attention. SO- WE CHANGED EVERYTHING.. We put a little bit in all the bowls when he had to eat- we invited ALL the dogs to go out if he had to go outside.. pretty soon- the others started to ignore his trips out.. And when Zubin came flying around the corner- running at Femka we scolded Zubin. Casually- but it was there " Zubin- no!".. A dog is not going to go after a dog for no reason- the signs are there before hand.
Also- if the ages of your dogs- group downs work great. In this case you put the subdominant dogs down first then the dominant - . That shows the subdomiant they go down first, before the dominant dog- and it shows the dominant dog- you are still the pack leader.

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Old 03-23-2007, 10:49 AM   #9
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wow borzoimom you are very informational! I was doing it all wrong, when coco would growl i would scold her because corona wasnt doing anything wrong. I mean she never charged her, she just layed down...or even walked by her. is that still wrong in that case?
Especially when we go out for walks coco HAS to be in front of me, HAS to be in front of the other dogs and HAS to be in the lead!
Coco never went for basic training because she was always really good with walking(sometimes pulled) but shes a fast learner so we didnt feel she needed to go and she could just learn this with us!
But no matter what i do (when we are all together) she doesnt understand that she needs to walk by my side no matter what.
when it is just her and I, she's amazing!
I just want a happy pack with no anger and no dominant signs...looks like i got it backwards eh! lol thanks everyone, your so helpful!
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Old 03-23-2007, 11:23 AM   #10
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" wow borzoimom you are very informational! I was doing it all wrong, when coco would growl i would scold her because corona wasnt doing anything wrong. I mean she never charged her, she just layed down...or even walked by her. is that still wrong in that case?"...


You are doing what we did too wrong when Zubin came. We were trying to protect the puppy- but what it did was since we were scolding her, she was raising the bar in intensity.. I am totally serious!!! She went from almost dangerious to him, to a huge playmate in a matter of days! You have seen the videos- you would never know at one point she wanted to kill that stupid puppy for being so rude and femka felt displaced! To me at the time it seemed backwards too, but we were disperate. It was either do this- or place Femka .. It was getting that bad! You discipline the one that got rude- not the one that retaliated- if you discipline the rude one- it wont escalate number two as the boss dog sees you as in charge- and second- the one that got rude learned to be more careful!

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