DogForum.net | Dog Forums and Community
     
 
Home Gallery Register Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Calendar Members List
Search
Go Back   DogForum.net | Dog Forums and Community > Dog Discussions > Puppies

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-10-2014, 03:15 PM   #1
Junior Member
 
Morforwyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Aberdare
Posts: 18

Rep: 10 Morforwyn is on a distinguished road
Unique Rep: 0
Default Two Pups, Twice The Aggression?

No matter how hard I tried, I could not make my subject a parody of 'two girls one cup' lol.

Anyhoo. So Odie and Snoopy are two brothers from the same litter. I brought Odie home when he was 7w 3d old, because he's the runty one of eight.

Snoopy came on the wed night, the day before they turned eight weeks old. Odie needed company and I do honestly think they appreciate having each other.

They are very different in their size, build and markings, it's thought they have two dads (their mam lives with two lurcher males and each has characteristics from the other dog).

I know they show aggression when they play. We had a bichon frise X toy poodle bitch. She was very very nippy but we thought she may only have been five weeks old when we took her home. Long story, and deviates from my issue.

They adore playfighting each other and I honestly think this has lessened the amount of times they choose us as playfight toys. But they do nip a little, for which I make a loud noise and push them away and ignore them til they sit nicely or come for a nuzzle. I also encourage them to use their toys, and to go outside for a run in the yard and garden.

But daily, they will fight with each other and I cannot tell if they are beating on each other or just fighting in a way that litter mates do. Sometimes the yelps coming from one or the other are pitiful and make me cringe/want to protect the one who doesn't like the nipping.

How do I know if it is more than playing and what do I do when they playfight each other? Snoopy is the bigger, more energetic and outgoing one, he would usually instigate something but Odie is the "boss" as I think it. I want to upload a video of them when they are doing it, but am experiencing issues enough, with posting photos to here, so haven't videoed them yet.

I would love to take them for classes (their second jabs are on thurs so they cane come out soon) but we're a single parent family on a budget. I am hoping to do what I can myself, socialise them, include them and so on. Though I DREAM of using one of them for dog line dancing. It's been an exciting thought since I saw Bill Bailey's character do it on Skins the series - I didn't know it even existed before then.....

Anyhoo. Any wisdom welcomed. Any questions I should endeavour to answer. Almost no holes barred! We love our furry family members.

Oh and as a ps, on Dt david's Day we took them to Cardiff for the parade to get them socialised. Snoopy walked on the pavement a bit, to give my arms a rest. That sort of sums him up - happy to just go with the flow, despite being a wussy soppy dog. Odie on the other hand, he sleeps more, he growls at Snoopy (but not us) if he is too close at feeding time, he wants to be held all the time, cwtched, carried, won't explore - Snoopy got out today, neighbour returned him and secured the gate for us - Odie wasn't interested in following him. See, different personalities or what.

Morforwyn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2014, 04:06 PM   #2
Forum Director
 
JGLI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,458

Rep: 96 JGLI will become famous soon enough
Unique Rep: 50
Default

Most puppies play fight as part of their normal puppy development. It can sound worse than it is but it is up to you to watch out for the safety of both of them and step in when it seems to get too rough or escalates to a too-excitable level.

Puppy Play - How Puppies Play

Is Your Dog’s Rough Play Appropriate? | The Bark

The Difference Between Dog Fighting & Play Fighting | Dog Care - The Daily Puppy
__________________
Help us Help you! Read and understand the Terms of Service, report offensive posts and Forum Reputation.
Helpful Tips - in our FAQ Section and Newbie Guide.
Connect with DogForum.org members - Add yourself to the dogforum.net member map.chat with us!
Things to do - Start a blog. Be sure to visit the DogForum.net photo gallery Let's see YOU!
Use your computer to benefit mankind - join the DogForum.org Folding Team.

JGLI is offline JGLI's Gallery  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2014, 08:15 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Dunbar's Mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 3,736

Rep: 50 Dunbar's Mom will become famous soon enough
Unique Rep: 11
Default

Good comments and links from JGLI.
__________________

Dunbar's Mom is offline Dunbar's Mom's Gallery  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2014, 08:42 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Bigboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK: Stoke on trent
Posts: 13,349

Rep: 73 Bigboy will become famous soon enough
Unique Rep: 38
Default

Hey there isn't much age between them only 4 days, and they are still very young pups if it's play fighting and JGLI's links will help you decide on this then it's nothing to worry about and pefectly normal puppy behaviour! But do supervise all play times they have together Never ever leave them alone together and using your judgement gently break up any OTT behaviour
And have time out to chill together!!

With Odie he needs to be a dog and not be carried every where you go he has to learn to walk on a leash and sniiff around etc so gradually wean off this
behaviour and still have cuddles etc! And dog classes sound ideal and fun too Good luck and keep us posted on their progress!!!
__________________
" Iam chillin with the forum! "

Thanks Monkey! I been fleeced Thanks Skunkstripe. Dave

ATB!

Bigboy is offline Bigboy's Gallery  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 09:56 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Massapequa
Posts: 9,812

Rep: 131 Monkey will become famous soon enoughMonkey will become famous soon enough
Unique Rep: 65
Default

Hello, and welcome to the forum, Im not always around as much as I used to be but I need to give you a warning.

Return one pup...

When you take two siblings you often emotionally under develop one, this is called littermate syndrome. Not only that in anything from 6 months to 2 years they can also start fighting...

It's a human concept to have two pups from the same litter, but dogs are not developed to handle that very well.. It is 4 times the job for you cause IF you choose to keep they need separate walks, socialization, training classes etc..

This can even occur if two young dogs are too close in age when acquiring them as well. I have a family that had a 10 month old dog, and got in a 4 month old female. The female has now turned human aggressive in her fearfulness.. and I TOLD them to get an older dog. (Im a dog trainer)

Im wishing you the best of luck, but my recommendation would be to give one away!

Here is some links on the subject...
Littermate Syndrome | Paws Abilities

Raising Siblings

Raising and Training Littermates

http://www.petworksco.com/Littermates.pdf

Buying Siblings two puppies or rearing two young pups from different litters. Nightmare Don't do it!
__________________
I love dogs cause they do not lie.

"I'm chillin' with the forum!

"I've been fleeced by Draco!"
"I've been fleeced by JGLI"

Last edited by Monkey; 03-11-2014 at 10:00 AM..

Monkey is offline Monkey's Gallery  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 04:39 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Kyllobernese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,953

Rep: 23 Kyllobernese is on a distinguished road
Unique Rep: 0
Default

I was surprised that nobody brought up problems with two puppies close in age till Monkey did. I would not worry that much about them playing roughly together but that they get too attached to each other. Read the links Monkey put up.

Kyllobernese is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 04:52 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
Bigboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK: Stoke on trent
Posts: 13,349

Rep: 73 Bigboy will become famous soon enough
Unique Rep: 38
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyllobernese View Post
I was surprised that nobody brought up problems with two puppies close in age till Monkey did. I would not worry that much about them playing roughly together but that they get too attached to each other. Read the links Monkey put up.
Well I understand what you are saying but if it's only play and not agression and they learn to respect eash other then why give one up? I am more concered about the pup showing signs of food agression this will need working on
__________________
" Iam chillin with the forum! "

Thanks Monkey! I been fleeced Thanks Skunkstripe. Dave

ATB!

Last edited by Bigboy; 03-11-2014 at 04:57 PM..

Bigboy is offline Bigboy's Gallery  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 05:05 PM   #8
Forum Director
 
JGLI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,458

Rep: 96 JGLI will become famous soon enough
Unique Rep: 50
Default

Many people have successfully raised siblings from the same letter... myself included. It does take extra thought, work, diligence, and observation, but unless specific problems are diagnosed by a certified behaviorist, I don't think it is necessary for you to have to choose between two pups you are bonded to. It is very important to treat each pup as a separate being, in training, time spent together, crating, etc.

"How to Raise Two Puppies Successfully
Skilled dog trainers and breeders often have the job of raising two puppies at once, so we know a lot about how to do this successfully. Here are some keys to success:

1. Make a careful choice. Dogs who get along as puppies will not necessarily get along at maturity. If you plan to keep your dogs together later (breeders and trainers often keep their dogs routinely separated, all or part of the time), it’s important to choose a pair with the best chance of a happy relationship as mature dogs. Most puppies get along, so that tells you nothing about how they will do later.

Getting dogs of opposite sex is usually the number one criteria for them to live safely and happily together later. In some breeds it’s especially dangerous to keep two of the same sex together, so do your homework if you’re considering that. Nature will take its course later, no matter how much you try to get them to love each other. They can love each other literally to the death, especially two females of certain breeds.

2. If you are going to keep the dogs together, plan to spay and neuter them, spaying the female before her first heat. If you want to breed dogs, they will need to live apart at least some of the time. Dogs need to be supervised during matings to prevent injuries, and females should not be bred on every cycle. Besides that, it’s quite possible your two dogs would turn out to be a poor genetic pairing. A male and female dog may be able to live freely together after maturity if both are altered. They actually have a richer social life that way than when used for breeding.

3. The pups need to be trained to rest calmly in separate crates while they are young. Putting two dogs in the same crate causes all kinds of problems, including excessive stress, fighting, and an over-dependence on each other. If there’s a mess, both are confined in it. Neither can get away from the other, and that’s just not natural for dogs. Plus, they very much need to learn while young that it is safe to be alone. And they need to bond with humans, which is hard for them to do when they spend all their time with another dog.

4. Each pup needs plenty of outings with humans without the other pup. This is an essential part of the pup developing an individual identity and the ability to function without the other one. It also gives the pup a desperately needed opportunity to bond with humans.

All dogs need to go out with you for socialization to people, places and things. The difference with two puppies is that you need to do double outings, ideally one per day for each puppy. This process is best continued at least until a year of age, longer for some dogs.

5. Each pup needs to be trained as an individual. When you have one puppy, a lot of training can happen around the house in the course of the day. Having two puppies complicates things. The outings will give you necessary opportunities to train the puppies away from each other.

Responsibility in dogs is an individual trait, not a group characteristic. A group of people is a mob and a group of dogs is a pack. A pack will do things you don’t want your dogs doing, because their instincts get over-stimulated and a different set of instincts kicks in.

Your best hope of controlling your dogs when they are together is to have an excellent foundation of training with each dog as an individual. Without that, the dogs can get hurt, other animals and people in the household can get hurt, and you can get hurt, too. You need to be able to control each dog with just your voice, not sticking your hands into a situation with teeth flashing.

Each dog needs to go to training class weekly without the other dog (many instructors wisely will not let family members train two dogs from the same family in the same class) and practice the class homework daily away from the other dog. As they become well-trained, you’ll also want to practice working them together...


01 Two Puppies or One? - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

"Truth? Two puppies are much more than twice the work of one. Your challenge? When you raise two pups at once they want to bond to each other more than to any human.The problem with that is that they can become overly dependent on each other, leading to extreme upset when separated. In the dog biz we call that: One brain, eight legs. There are ways to avoid that so you end up with the happy companions you dreamt of when you brought them home. And this is how you do it:

Solo Time

Every day, each pup gets solo time with you. In a perfect world, this would include a few minutes of puppy kindergarten games followed by some play, followed by some handling and cuddle time. Total time spent: 10 minutes. Ideally, thirty minutes each daily would be great, but ten would make a difference.

Solo Crates

Sometimes it is tempting to crate two puppies together and, if it helps them sleep through the night quietly that first week, we understand, but after that, get them in separate crates, ideally in separate rooms. Why? You ask. They are so happy together. Exactly. And that is the problem. Get them used to being on their own now, or you can raise two completely co-dependent dogs who fall apart when out of sight of each other – howling, barking, digging at the door, hyperventilating and more. Not any fun for either. Yes, you’ll have to go through the yipping adjustment period – everyone does – don’t skip it just because it is easy to avoid. You won’t be doing them, or you, any long-term favors.

Solo Classes

Get to puppy class, twice a week. That’s a wonderful chance to get solo time with one while practicing solo crate time with the other. Trying to have both in the same class defeats the purpose and will make it more of a challenge for you. Take this one-on-one time now, it’ll build your bond and pay dividends for years to come.

Solo Socialization

Get them out and playing with sensible, well-socialized adults dogs and other pups. Rotate one in the play group then the other; after some solo time, if you want them both to play – fine. But make sure they both get a chance to learn the ropes on their own and develop their own individual personalities.

Solo Walks

As above, this will allow you to bond to each individually (and vice versa) and allow you to see the strengths and weaknesses in each personality. After a solo stroll around the block if you want to try a dual walk, go for it. It’s likely to be complicated but you’ll get to see why one-on-one is good for all concerned.

Doing these simple (but admittedly time consuming) steps for the first seven months can get you what you dream of having, two fabulous dogs who will be your attached, stable companions for a decade or more. Now that’s well worth the investment!

by Sarah Wilson"
Raising Two Puppies at Once | mysmartpuppy.com
__________________
Help us Help you! Read and understand the Terms of Service, report offensive posts and Forum Reputation.
Helpful Tips - in our FAQ Section and Newbie Guide.
Connect with DogForum.org members - Add yourself to the dogforum.net member map.chat with us!
Things to do - Start a blog. Be sure to visit the DogForum.net photo gallery Let's see YOU!
Use your computer to benefit mankind - join the DogForum.org Folding Team.

JGLI is offline JGLI's Gallery  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 06:45 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Kyllobernese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,953

Rep: 23 Kyllobernese is on a distinguished road
Unique Rep: 0
Default

I have also raised siblings together, just thought they should be aware of the fact that the pups need to learn to be separate individuals. Sometimes one ends up a bully and the other timid if they are not trained separately part of the time. I do not personally think that they have to get rid of one of them.

JGLI gave a lot of good advice.

Kyllobernese is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 08:24 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Kaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 4,293

Rep: 264 Kaos is a jewel in the roughKaos is a jewel in the roughKaos is a jewel in the rough
Unique Rep: 68
Default

I am in total agreement with Monkey on this one. Your pups are still young enough that you can rehome one without causing any major upset. I'll be totally blunt, if you can't afford puppy training, you really are not in a position to raise two pups at once. Dogs are expensive, and what happens when one or both need the vet, desexing, even flea treatment is expensive when buying for mulitple dogs. Both pups will have a better chance to do well in life if you focus all your energy and resources on the one you keep.

Yes, some siblings are ok, but as a trainer I see frequently the problems suggested in the links posted by Monkey. Why take the risk? Most people find doing a really good and thorough job of raising one well adjusted well trained puppy exhausting and much more demanding than they anticipated. You can tripple that workload for raising siblings well because you need to work with them both together and individually.

Last edited by Kaos; 03-11-2014 at 08:27 PM..

Kaos is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:19 PM.

Shogun Interactive Development Copyright © 2006-2015 Shogun Interactive Development. All rights reserved.