Breeding tame foxes - DogForum.net

**skunkstripe** · 10-16-2008, 02:54 PM

I had a discussion with someone today who made me aware of some experiments that went on in Russia to tame wild foxes. I found it so intriguing that I looked it up on the internet and decided to post here. It's not hot off the press but I thought it might give interesting insight into breeding and temperament discussions. And the orinigal purpose was not one that I agree with personally, but at least some useful results came out of it. For example, breeding for "tameness" changed the color from silver to spotted.

Quote:

In a long-term experiment at a Siberian fur farm, geneticists have created this new version of Vulpes vulpes, the silver fox, by allowing only the friendliest animals from each generation to breed. Having selected only the most ''tamable'' of some 45,000 foxes over 35 generations, the scientists have compressed into a mere 40 years an evolutionary process that took thousands of years to transform ancestral wolves into domestic dogs.

The original purpose of the breeding was to create a friendly breed less likely than wild animals to fight when put to death. But in time, geneticists saw that far-reaching changes they observed in the foxes' physical and neurological makeup merited scientific study. The scientists apparently underwent some changes, too. Close bonds developed between the tame foxes and their human wardens, and the staff at the fur farm is trying to find ways of saving the animals from slaughter.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...50C0A96F958260

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tame_Silver_Fox

Monkey · 10-16-2008, 03:10 PM

SO cute!!!!

Its interesting to see however, that would explain a LOT about the way our dogs looks today

applesmom · 10-16-2008, 03:19 PM

That's a fascinating article. It points out that breeders can create problems without even being aware of it since the changes are so gradual.

The poor foxes though. Growing up with trust in humans only to eventually be slaughtered like livestock just for their fur.

agilityk9trainer · 10-16-2008, 03:21 PM

I've known about this interesting study for years, and it is the main component that changed my way of thinking about dogs. I used to think that looking at the wolf to determine dog behavior was good until I studied this experiment in domestication. It changed my thinking to realize that domestication changes the animal so greatly as to make the study of wolves to determine dog behavior really unimportant. So, IMO, just study the dog. Domestication is a very, very strong influence.

**skunkstripe** · 10-16-2008, 03:35 PM

I brought it up because PBS was re-running a two-part series about dogs. Since people here seem to be interested I dug up a video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enrLSfxTqZ0

Spicy_VV · 10-16-2008, 03:46 PM

I saw a show about this on tv before. Very interesting and goes to show that you can breed for temperament whether good or bag. And show how environmental and breeding changes also the looks of animal. This is like domesticated pigs reverting back to the looks of their wild counterparts if let free to live in the wild. They will grow hair and tusk, ect.

bunnyphone · 10-16-2008, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spicy_VV

This is like domesticated pigs reverting back to the looks of their wild counterparts if let free to live in the wild. They will grow hair and tusk, ect.

I misread that as domesticated dogs going wild, and I had an image of feral dogs growing tusks

Sugardog · 10-16-2008, 05:48 PM

I do find it funny how studies like this, ones that really aide in debunking the old idea that we can learn about dog behavior from wolves, really seem to go unnoticed. I too have known about this for years and like agilityk9trainer, it has strongly influenced my opinion on dog behavior. I wonder how many people have ever even heard of the results of studies done on feral dogs, which is about as close to "wild" as you can get when your talking about a domestic animal.

I can't help but wonder how exactly those two traits are linked, appearance and temperament. Lets see, wild foxes are skittish, flighty and aggressive because they are necessary survival tactics for life in the wild and they are silver so they are better able to camouflage with their environment. You take away the flightiness, which would mean biologically, they don't have as many threats, they have no need to be flighty (by biologically, I mean if this was an occurrence natural selection taking place in the wild). With no threats or dangers, why would coat pattern matter? The need to blend in isn't as necessary anymore.

That's the best I can come up with!

Melamaphine · 10-17-2008, 08:05 AM

Aww, they're very cute but I kind of want them to savage the fur farmers if they end up going that way.

I'd happily have one as a pet, awwww

The study is interesting too, omitting the evil fur farming of course

Spicy_VV · 10-18-2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunnyphone

I misread that as domesticated dogs going wild, and I had an image of feral dogs growing tusks

Lol you haven't seen those saber tooth feral dogs in your area

10-16-2008, 03:10 PM	#2
Monkey Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: North Massapequa Posts: 9,109 Blog Entries: 23 Rep: 126 Unique Rep: 60	SO cute!!!! Its interesting to see however, that would explain a LOT about the way our dogs looks today __________________ I love dogs cause they do not lie. "I'm chillin' with the forum! "I've been fleeced by Draco!" "I've been fleeced by JGLI"

10-16-2008, 03:19 PM	#3
applesmom Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,991 Blog Entries: 7 Rep: 325 Unique Rep: 76	That's a fascinating article. It points out that breeders can create problems without even being aware of it since the changes are so gradual. The poor foxes though. Growing up with trust in humans only to eventually be slaughtered like livestock just for their fur. __________________ "I've been fleeced A well trained dog will make no attempt to share your lunch. He'll just make you feel guilty while you're eating it.

10-16-2008, 03:21 PM	#4
agilityk9trainer Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,033 Blog Entries: 27 Rep: 215 Unique Rep: 58	I've known about this interesting study for years, and it is the main component that changed my way of thinking about dogs. I used to think that looking at the wolf to determine dog behavior was good until I studied this experiment in domestication. It changed my thinking to realize that domestication changes the animal so greatly as to make the study of wolves to determine dog behavior really unimportant. So, IMO, just study the dog. Domestication is a very, very strong influence. __________________ MACH4 Aslan MXF, TQX, AXP, AxJP, OFP, RAE, EAC, EJC, OCC, WV-O, TN-N, CD, TG-N, RS-N, JS-N, R2-CL, CGC, TDI, FFX-AG (10 year old sheltie) Jericho CD, RAE, OA, NAJ, CDX, R1-MCL, CGC, FFX-AP (8 year old hard of hearing sheltie) Laika NAJ, CGC (retired 14 year old American Eskimo) Asher MX, AXJ, AXF, RN, CGC (4 year sheltie)

10-16-2008, 03:35 PM	#5
skunkstripe All American Dog Lover Join Date: May 2006 Location: New England USA Posts: 20,995 Blog Entries: 15 Rep: 359 Unique Rep: 142	I brought it up because PBS was re-running a two-part series about dogs. Since people here seem to be interested I dug up a video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enrLSfxTqZ0 __________________ Help us Help you! Read and understand the Terms of Service, report offensive posts and Forum Reputation. Helpful Tips - in our FAQ Section and Newbie Guide. Connect with DogForum.org members - Add yourself to the dogforum.net member map.chat with us! Things to do - Start a blog. Be sure to visit the DogForum.net photo gallery Let's see YOU! Use your computer to benefit mankind - join the DogForum.org Folding Team. Thanks Fede for the sigpic! I've been fleeced by Draco!

10-16-2008, 03:46 PM	#6
Spicy_VV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 772 Blog Entries: 7 Rep: 33 Unique Rep: 8	I saw a show about this on tv before. Very interesting and goes to show that you can breed for temperament whether good or bag. And show how environmental and breeding changes also the looks of animal. This is like domesticated pigs reverting back to the looks of their wild counterparts if let free to live in the wild. They will grow hair and tusk, ect. __________________ I HAVE BEEN KISSED!! thanks sheplovr I've got the , do you? Thanks Sheplovr

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Breeding tame foxes

10-16-2008, 05:48 PM	#8
Sugardog Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,281 Rep: 87 Unique Rep: 33	I do find it funny how studies like this, ones that really aide in debunking the old idea that we can learn about dog behavior from wolves, really seem to go unnoticed. I too have known about this for years and like agilityk9trainer, it has strongly influenced my opinion on dog behavior. I wonder how many people have ever even heard of the results of studies done on feral dogs, which is about as close to "wild" as you can get when your talking about a domestic animal. I can't help but wonder how exactly those two traits are linked, appearance and temperament. Lets see, wild foxes are skittish, flighty and aggressive because they are necessary survival tactics for life in the wild and they are silver so they are better able to camouflage with their environment. You take away the flightiness, which would mean biologically, they don't have as many threats, they have no need to be flighty (by biologically, I mean if this was an occurrence natural selection taking place in the wild). With no threats or dangers, why would coat pattern matter? The need to blend in isn't as necessary anymore. That's the best I can come up with! __________________ I'm chillin' with the forum! Thanks Necknot and Sheplovr! I've been fleeced by Draco!

10-17-2008, 08:05 AM	#9
Melamaphine Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Coventry, UK Posts: 4,893 Blog Entries: 9 Rep: 66 Unique Rep: 30	Aww, they're very cute but I kind of want them to savage the fur farmers if they end up going that way. I'd happily have one as a pet, awwww The study is interesting too, omitting the evil fur farming of course __________________ I'am chillin' with forum thanks Bigboy and Sheplovr! I've been fleeced by Draco!

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