Wolf-Dog crosses - DogForum.net

Sugardog · 12-30-2007, 07:32 PM

Quote:

It's interesting what you say about feral dogs do not work or stay in a pack when there is an abundance of food. Does that mean they would come together and work as a team were their lives a constant struggle, like it is for wild wolves? Yes, I think it does. It would be a very interesting experiment, if perhaps not ethical, to form a pack of feral dogs, and abandon them somewhere where they would be safe, where they had shelter and plenty of food and water, and observe.

Yep, when food is scarce and they have to hunt, they come together and form a pack and work together to bring down prey. But when food is abundant, they go their own ways and become scavengers. It's interesting to compare that trait in feral dogs, to pet dogs (same domestic dogs, just different living situations). I sometimes wonder if that has something to do with why some dogs/packs have so much trouble getting along. Food is abundant for pet dogs, so if they stay true to their nature, they technically wouldn't be living in such a social situation with each other and living together as we have them do. Perhaps "pack dysfunction" isn't because of an absent, competent leader. Perhaps it's because we are asking them to live in an unnatural state as a pack amongst each other when food is abundant and they have no reason to be in a pack and neglecting to teach them to share and tolerate rather than submit to each other. It's an interesting thought.

I don't know how independant or close of a pack feral dogs become though, as their food supply fluctuates. If they do become almost totally independant of each other, then maybe I'm onto something.

applesmom · 12-30-2007, 10:27 PM

I don't really have anything to add other than I'm enjoying reading this discussion.

Sugardog if you've read the Coppinger book I'd recommended on the origin of dogs, you'll see that he has actually witnessed the same things you're suggesting.

Yep! You really are onto something here!

Great thread guys!

Sugardog · 12-31-2007, 01:54 AM

I'm enjoying the discussion as well! Bugle is a very interesting person to discuss a topic like this with

I will have to get that book now Applesmom. Anybody who can relate to and consider some of the crazy things I think up deserves credit

That's what happens when I get bored.

Bugle · 12-31-2007, 08:24 AM

Sugardog: that is fascinating. I too think you are on to something - and I too am enjoying this discussion. May I say what a pleasure it is to join a website and, albeit incognito, be able to publically declare that I kept a wolfdog for 10 years under the guise of being a Sibe/Mal cross, and not be castigated, villified and shamed - as I have been on several other chat sites here. I mustn't go off at a tangent of course, but the law in this country that any dog with more than 1% wolf content must be kept in a compound under licence is an absolute ass. ALL dogs of ANY breed are more than 1% wolf, and the GSD, the most popular dog in the world, is at least a 50% wolf cross ! Wouldn't that put the cat amongst the pigeons if all GSD owners had to keep their beautiful dogs locked up in a compound !

Anyway, I mustn't go off topic. I must try and get hold of the Coppinger book - I have never heard of him/her. Thanks for the posting Applesmom. BTW, I see you have GSP's - I used to have a gorgeous female GSP from whom I bred one litter of pups. She was a Wittekind - means nothing to me, but may to you. She was run over sadly in 1987, a mad bitch, but lovely. I'm off topic again, sorry !

If we don't speak again before tonight, Have a Great New Year's celebration and may everyone have a Happy and Peaceful 2008. But I will probably be on here again before then ... it's so interesting talking to you guys !

and I am going to be very

later on drowning my sorrows - I'll probably have a howl (literally !) with My Boy's ghost over his grave tonight. I get very maudlin when I'm sober, but go completely over the top when not. Our poor neighbours think I am completely barking !

**skunkstripe** · 12-31-2007, 11:04 AM

I find the topic of feral dogs extremely interesting. As a matter of fact, I started a thread on it
http://www.dogforum.org/showthread.php?t=15911
since it may well have enough substance to generate a really good discussion of its own.

Sugardog · 01-01-2008, 12:14 AM

Yes Bugle, we have a very open minded group here

I can't chastize you at all for owning a wolf dog. It is obvious that you have done your research and understand their nature and thus are an excellent owner for one. I personally don't think they should be bred (I think wolves should be in the wild where they belong), but since they are being bred with dogs and sold as pets, I am more than happy to hear that you are continuing to be involved with them.

Hope you have a wonderful New Year and you too Skunkstripe

Feral dogs seems like a good idea for a discussion. Maybe we can get this topick back to the dog whisperer and take our dog behavior conspiracies elsewhere.

applesmom · 01-01-2008, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Thanks for the posting Applesmom. BTW, I see you have GSP's - I used to have a gorgeous female GSP from whom I bred one litter of pups. She was a Wittekind - means nothing to me, but may to you

Yes I'm familiar with the Mills de Hoogs (by reputation) and their Wittkind dogs. Quite a few of their dogs have been imported to the US and have had a lasting impact on the breed here. I've seen a number of them at National Specialty shows. Wonderful dogs!

They've also imported American dogs in the past to enhance their breeding program. One that comes immediately to mind is a daughter (CH Stradavarias Fugue) out of the prepotent American stud DC Hillhavens Hustler. The distinctive color pattern of Hustler still shows up in their dogs now and then even after several generations. I was fortunate enough to see Hustler work several times at both field trials and shows.

Probably much more information than you wanted to hear. I love my shorthairs!

Bugle · 01-01-2008, 10:44 AM

Not at all ! Although I am spoilt now for ever for any other type of dog except a wolfy type, I still love GSPs. Lizzie was an absolute nutter, completely hyper, but a sweetheart. Her father was Wittekind Gregory. It was very interesting learning more about the breed, thank you so much for the info Applesmom.

Bugle · 01-01-2008, 03:28 PM

Sugardog: thank you for not castigating me! I know many people have issues with the crossing of wolves with dogs. I personally think it is a good thing, because with the wolf genes comes intelligence, good hips (wolves do not suffer from HD), independence of spirit, hopefully lack of inbreeding and last but not least the most beautiful looks.

All my life I have had "pedigrees with health problems". I had a bloodhound with epilepsy and numerous labradors with health problems ranging from eye to bad hips and elbows. When I first learned about this wonderful lady (now sadly deceased) who had imported pure and high percentage wolves from the States and was crossing them with huskies and malamutes, I knew I was going to find the love of my life. And I did. And he wasn't my husband ... sorry Mike, but he would probably say the same of me !

And now you are quite right, we must stop hijacking this thread about the Dog Whisperer! Thank you for your lovely comments and a very happy new year to you. xx

Sugardog · 01-01-2008, 04:52 PM

Ok, one more comment before we stop hijacking lol.

I think that if people would breed dogs with wolves for health purposes, then that would be far more acceptable. At this point, the only reason they are being bred is so people can have a "pet wolf", which I'm sure you'd agree is unfair to the animal. If a dedicated individual with the knowledge necessary could actually take the time and breed them carefully to create a domestic animal with less health problems than the current ones, then that actually woulnd't be a bad idea.

I can't remember the country, but one person actually did something similar with coyotes. They bred them with select breeds of dogs to create an ultimate drug and explosive detecting dog. A dog who's sense of smell was greater than any current domestic dogs and who had the independance to do the job on their own so a handler wouldn't have to be constantly pointing the dog around. The dogs are property of the airport and roam about freely, finding what they were trained to find.

12-30-2007, 10:27 PM	#2
applesmom Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,991 Blog Entries: 7 Rep: 325 Unique Rep: 76	I don't really have anything to add other than I'm enjoying reading this discussion. Sugardog if you've read the Coppinger book I'd recommended on the origin of dogs, you'll see that he has actually witnessed the same things you're suggesting. Yep! You really are onto something here! Great thread guys! __________________ "I've been fleeced A well trained dog will make no attempt to share your lunch. He'll just make you feel guilty while you're eating it.

12-31-2007, 01:54 AM	#3
Sugardog Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,281 Rep: 87 Unique Rep: 33	I'm enjoying the discussion as well! Bugle is a very interesting person to discuss a topic like this with I will have to get that book now Applesmom. Anybody who can relate to and consider some of the crazy things I think up deserves credit That's what happens when I get bored. __________________ I'm chillin' with the forum! Thanks Necknot and Sheplovr! I've been fleeced by Draco!

12-31-2007, 11:04 AM	#5
skunkstripe All American Dog Lover Join Date: May 2006 Location: New England USA Posts: 20,995 Blog Entries: 15 Rep: 359 Unique Rep: 142	I find the topic of feral dogs extremely interesting. As a matter of fact, I started a thread on it http://www.dogforum.org/showthread.php?t=15911 since it may well have enough substance to generate a really good discussion of its own. __________________ Help us Help you! Read and understand the Terms of Service, report offensive posts and Forum Reputation. Helpful Tips - in our FAQ Section and Newbie Guide. Connect with DogForum.org members - Add yourself to the dogforum.net member map.chat with us! Things to do - Start a blog. Be sure to visit the DogForum.net photo gallery Let's see YOU! Use your computer to benefit mankind - join the DogForum.org Folding Team. Thanks Fede for the sigpic! I've been fleeced by Draco!

01-01-2008, 12:14 AM	#6
Sugardog Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,281 Rep: 87 Unique Rep: 33	Yes Bugle, we have a very open minded group here I can't chastize you at all for owning a wolf dog. It is obvious that you have done your research and understand their nature and thus are an excellent owner for one. I personally don't think they should be bred (I think wolves should be in the wild where they belong), but since they are being bred with dogs and sold as pets, I am more than happy to hear that you are continuing to be involved with them. Hope you have a wonderful New Year and you too Skunkstripe Feral dogs seems like a good idea for a discussion. Maybe we can get this topick back to the dog whisperer and take our dog behavior conspiracies elsewhere. __________________ I'm chillin' with the forum! Thanks Necknot and Sheplovr! I've been fleeced by Draco!

01-01-2008, 04:52 PM	#10
Sugardog Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,281 Rep: 87 Unique Rep: 33	Ok, one more comment before we stop hijacking lol. I think that if people would breed dogs with wolves for health purposes, then that would be far more acceptable. At this point, the only reason they are being bred is so people can have a "pet wolf", which I'm sure you'd agree is unfair to the animal. If a dedicated individual with the knowledge necessary could actually take the time and breed them carefully to create a domestic animal with less health problems than the current ones, then that actually woulnd't be a bad idea. I can't remember the country, but one person actually did something similar with coyotes. They bred them with select breeds of dogs to create an ultimate drug and explosive detecting dog. A dog who's sense of smell was greater than any current domestic dogs and who had the independance to do the job on their own so a handler wouldn't have to be constantly pointing the dog around. The dogs are property of the airport and roam about freely, finding what they were trained to find. __________________ I'm chillin' with the forum! Thanks Necknot and Sheplovr! I've been fleeced by Draco!

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Wolf-Dog crosses

12-31-2007, 08:24 AM	#4
Bugle Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: in the depths of the countryside in Middle England ! Posts: 1,312 Rep: 28 Unique Rep: 14	Sugardog: that is fascinating. I too think you are on to something - and I too am enjoying this discussion. May I say what a pleasure it is to join a website and, albeit incognito, be able to publically declare that I kept a wolfdog for 10 years under the guise of being a Sibe/Mal cross, and not be castigated, villified and shamed - as I have been on several other chat sites here. I mustn't go off at a tangent of course, but the law in this country that any dog with more than 1% wolf content must be kept in a compound under licence is an absolute ass. ALL dogs of ANY breed are more than 1% wolf, and the GSD, the most popular dog in the world, is at least a 50% wolf cross ! Wouldn't that put the cat amongst the pigeons if all GSD owners had to keep their beautiful dogs locked up in a compound ! Anyway, I mustn't go off topic. I must try and get hold of the Coppinger book - I have never heard of him/her. Thanks for the posting Applesmom. BTW, I see you have GSP's - I used to have a gorgeous female GSP from whom I bred one litter of pups. She was a Wittekind - means nothing to me, but may to you. She was run over sadly in 1987, a mad bitch, but lovely. I'm off topic again, sorry ! If we don't speak again before tonight, Have a Great New Year's celebration and may everyone have a Happy and Peaceful 2008. But I will probably be on here again before then ... it's so interesting talking to you guys ! and I am going to be very later on drowning my sorrows - I'll probably have a howl (literally !) with My Boy's ghost over his grave tonight. I get very maudlin when I'm sober, but go completely over the top when not. Our poor neighbours think I am completely barking !

01-01-2008, 10:44 AM	#8
Bugle Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: in the depths of the countryside in Middle England ! Posts: 1,312 Rep: 28 Unique Rep: 14	Not at all ! Although I am spoilt now for ever for any other type of dog except a wolfy type, I still love GSPs. Lizzie was an absolute nutter, completely hyper, but a sweetheart. Her father was Wittekind Gregory. It was very interesting learning more about the breed, thank you so much for the info Applesmom.

01-01-2008, 03:28 PM	#9
Bugle Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: in the depths of the countryside in Middle England ! Posts: 1,312 Rep: 28 Unique Rep: 14	Sugardog: thank you for not castigating me! I know many people have issues with the crossing of wolves with dogs. I personally think it is a good thing, because with the wolf genes comes intelligence, good hips (wolves do not suffer from HD), independence of spirit, hopefully lack of inbreeding and last but not least the most beautiful looks. All my life I have had "pedigrees with health problems". I had a bloodhound with epilepsy and numerous labradors with health problems ranging from eye to bad hips and elbows. When I first learned about this wonderful lady (now sadly deceased) who had imported pure and high percentage wolves from the States and was crossing them with huskies and malamutes, I knew I was going to find the love of my life. And I did. And he wasn't my husband ... sorry Mike, but he would probably say the same of me ! And now you are quite right, we must stop hijacking this thread about the Dog Whisperer! Thank you for your lovely comments and a very happy new year to you. xx

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