Feral dog behavior - DogForum.net

**skunkstripe** · 12-31-2007, 11:02 AM

Since this subject got brought up in another thread I thought it might be worth disucssing on its own merits. If it doesn't take but several generations for domestic dogs to revert to more "wolflike" behavior, this certainly speaks for rapid breeding to change temperament in domestic dogs, and also from wolves to dogs-at least that is how I see it.

Quote:

Feral and domestic dogs often differ markedly in their behavior toward people. Scott and Causey (1973) based their classification of these two types by observing the behavior of dogs while confined in cage traps. Domestic dogs usually wagged their tails or exhibited a calm disposition when a human approached, whereas most feral dogs showed highly aggressive behavior, growling, barking, and attempting to bite. Some dogs were intermediate in their behavior and couldn’t be classified as either feral or domestic based solely on their reaction to humans. Since many feral dogs have been pursued, shot at, or trapped by people, their aggressive behavior toward humans is not surprising. Gipson (1983) described the numerous lead pellets imbedded under the skin of a feral dog caught in Arkansas as a testament to its relationship with people.

Feral dogs are usually secretive and wary of people. Thus, they are active during dawn, dusk, and at night much like other wild canids. They often travel in packs or groups and may have rendezvous sites like wolves. Travel routes to and from the gathering or den sites may be well defined. Food scraps and other evidence of concentrated activity may be observed at gathering sites.

http://icwdm.org/handbook/carnivor/FeralDog.asp

Quote:

A popular perspective on the social behavior of dogs in multiple-dog households sees the dogs' behavior as reflecting the sociobiological laws of the rigidly structured dominance hierarchy that has been described for wolf packs. This view suggests that aggression problems among dogs are natural expressions of conflict that arise whenever dominance status is in contention. One recommended solution has been for the owner to endorse and enforce a particular dominance hierarchy because, on the wolf pack model, aggression is minimized when the structure of the hierarchy is clear, strong, and stable. This article questions the validity of this perspective on 2 principal grounds. First, because it does not seem to occur in the wild, this article suggests the strong dominance hierarchy that has been described for wolves may be a by-product of captivity. If true, it implies that social behavior—even in wolves—may be a product more of environmental circumstances and contingencies than an instinctive directive. Second, because feral dogs do not exhibit the classic wolf-pack structure, the validity of the canid, social dominance hierarchy again comes into question.

http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10....urnalCode=jaws

Bugle · 12-31-2007, 01:38 PM

Well, I have always believed that scratch your dog and underneath you will see the wolf.

Having lived with a wolf cross for 10 years, there is absolutely no doubt in mind that he was very different from any other dog I had ever owned or met. However, he was of course totally domesticated, house trained and vaguely obedient - ish ! If he could see a reason for being asked to do something !

So now the idea that our own "wolf" packs, in other words our domesticated dogs, should be run by us, alpha male and alpha female, using such strict rules regarding domination and control, is being challenged, because in a wild wolf pack this seemingly undemocratic way may be purely caused by environmental influences, rather than across the board.

The reports of most lucky people who have lived with wild wolfpacks all seem to say the same thing - what a wonderful social structure wild wolves have, everyone knows their place, and alpha male and alpha female rule with a rod of iron, and it works.

It's a fascinating theory ... and one that I think I will subscribe to for feral dogs and our own dogs, even in a large domesticated dog pack such as we see on Cesar Millan's tv programme. But I will need some persuading to accept that packs of wild wolves are run according to environmental conditions. If that were the case, surely all the various reports we read from Monty Sloane, Shaun Ellis, David thingey whose name I can never remember etc. etc. would be finding this for themselves. I certainly haven't read every piece of research by every wolf researcher, but I have read an awful lot (although it has to be said not for a few years), and I am sure I would have remembered something as controversial as this. It is a very interesting concept though and I will be most interested to read the other comments.

agilityk9trainer · 01-15-2009, 05:49 PM

I think it's just as the link I posted earlier explained. Once science accepts a theory, it takes at least 20 years for it to accept change when that theory has been debunked. Apparently, those who study wolves in the wild (and this is the difference), now say the Alpha male/female structure isn't a good reference for how wolves really get along.

Here's the link

http://4pawsu.com/alphawolf.pdf

And, feral dogs are a whole other matter as we have already discussed the genetic differences between the wolf and the dog and how these differences create a completely different animal. I would expect the feral dog to behave differently than the wolf.

All this being said, I do wish it were allowed to let threads go astray as the best discussions come about that way. If I started a thread that went astray into such good discussion, I'd be thrilled.

**skunkstripe** · 01-15-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agilityk9trainer

All this being said, I do wish it were allowed to let threads go astray as the best discussions come about that way. If I started a thread that went astray into such good discussion, I'd be thrilled.

Of course it is.

The only reason for nudging them back, splitting, and/or modifying the title is to make it searchable long after we've moved on to other topics.

agilityk9trainer · 01-15-2009, 05:54 PM

I see.

Draco · 01-15-2009, 11:06 PM

Discussion started in the other thread on domestic dogs surviving in the wild... I'm kinda building on the prior thread's info. Agility brought up about herding dogs not having the kill instinct... I'd hedge a bet that a hungry Border Collie would leap the fence from rounding up critters to hunting them pretty quickly.

Hunger is a POWERFUL motivator! Thus some of the herders stand a good chance of making the cut. Shelties on the other paw, like Calypso was, that I am not so sure on. Calypso would strike and bite at trees on our walks, and even once bit a light pole with a resounding 'boooongggg!' It was one of her quirks. Given the typical reserved of strangers part of a typical Sheltie personality, this would work to aid in survival... but it might also lead to starvation. Calypso's coat did not matt easily, but it was also not a typical Sheltie coat. Ashenpaw's coat is also not a heavy matting coat, and most of the Border Collies I have had the fortune to pet are not heavy matt coats. I know they vary... but that is a good point to consider: the balance between the coat for protection and potential problems with it getting in the way. Wolves and foxes have long, luxurious coats and generally do not have too many issues with infected matt sites. So, it would be dependent upon environment and circumstance. Natural selection would absolutely take make the choice here.

What is nice about this topic's origin in the other thread is that it is pure speculation, this is all theorizing using logic on what would and what would not survive. Thus, technically no one is incorrect in their opinion.

In the end, though, I still think that the dogs would mix rather quickly and become a wide range of mutts. I mean, you're not going to have German Shep's searching out other German Shep's only!

Pretty much they will mix and mingle... what ends up contributing to the gene pool successfully is wide open!

In THIS thread, Agility you point out that scientific theory taking years to be accepted, 20 years is somewhat average.

It does take some time, and it should! Otherwise every crackpot idea would automatically be accepted and we'd all be spinning in circles wondering what is true, and what is not. Once a theory is proposed, a lot of teams will often poke and prod at it, seeing how sound it is.

I'll come back to this thread and post more when I am more awake... long COLD day at work... it was in the minus twenties today (not counting windchill), that saps you when you're walking dogs after dark. Brrrrr!

applesmom · 01-16-2009, 01:04 AM

I'd suspect that very few dogs of any breed that had been raised as pets would make it past the first month. As those who did survive began to reproduce, each sucessive generation would become wilder, stronger, better acclimated and more able to survive. In Coppingers book he mentions that the established groups of feral dogs he studied were similar in size.

A couple of years ago (maybe longer) a rescued GSP named Everett managed to escape from his new owners in Wisconsin. The last I heard; he's still living in the woods, is sighted at least once a week coming into local yards to play with other dogs. He's completely terrified of humans and has managed to avoid every well placed, food filled trap that's been set out for him. Strangely enough he does manage to sneak in and eat the occasional food set out in the open for him, even though he won't go near the traps. He's neutered so he can't reproduce and he's never been seen with any other wild dogs. Just the pets he visits to play with. He's become somewhat famous and all sightings are reported to the local game ranger and the local rescue.

If I remember correctly he was originally surrendered because he was such a determined escape artist. As each day goes by there are more and more concerns about the advisability of continuing to try to trap him. Once caught he can't be released again. And after two years in the wild he may not be able to adapt again to a life with humans.

Twenty years ago there was another GSP that was lost for 6 months. Once she was returned home, she was never the same dog and lived a fear filled life. Other hunting dogs have been lost and did not manage to survive past the first week or so. Though they're athletic, have a strong desire to hunt and are perfectly capable of killing to eat; by the time they catch on to the fact that they have to hunt for themselves, they're too weak to be successful. Plus if they don't have access to water, they can't survive.

This would be the dilemma of just about any medium sized or large pet dog
that found itself left to it's own devices away from civilization, trash cans and garbage dumps. IMO small dogs wouldn't have a chance!

agilityk9trainer · 01-16-2009, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by applesmom

Though they're athletic, have a strong desire to hunt and are perfectly capable of killing to eat; by the time they catch on to the fact that they have to hunt for themselves, they're too weak to be successful.

Very good point. I think it would be true that by they would be very weak before realizing they'd better hunt. Too weak to actually catch something, unless it lucked out and came up on something already dying.

No doubt, Aslan (small dog) wouldn't make it beyond a few days. Not only could he not hunt, has a thin coat and is rather pampered, he'd be a good meal for other prey animals. Good thing he'll never get the chance to "go wild." Not many wild things in the 'burbs.

applesmom · 01-16-2009, 02:04 AM

I would think a decent sized terrier might have a better chance on its own than a dog bred for bird hunting. Bird dogs are bred to work with a hunter under the gun and to have soft mouths. A bird dog with a tendency to kill the birds would be a liability.

Most Terriers are bred to be self hunters and tenacious. A plus in wild conditions.

A dog that was born feral rather than a pet who suddenly found itself alone without a human would be two completely different situations and the outcomes would be different.

catz4m8z · 01-16-2009, 07:09 AM

It all comes down to the characteristics we breed into them doesnt it? Terriers, if they had a high prey drive, could make do on rats, voles, rabbits, etc, but a toy dog would have no chance. But thenm again a toy dog probably wouldnt develop such a high fear of man. They are designed to want to be with people.

01-15-2009, 05:49 PM	#3
agilityk9trainer Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,033 Blog Entries: 27 Rep: 215 Unique Rep: 58	I think it's just as the link I posted earlier explained. Once science accepts a theory, it takes at least 20 years for it to accept change when that theory has been debunked. Apparently, those who study wolves in the wild (and this is the difference), now say the Alpha male/female structure isn't a good reference for how wolves really get along. Here's the link http://4pawsu.com/alphawolf.pdf And, feral dogs are a whole other matter as we have already discussed the genetic differences between the wolf and the dog and how these differences create a completely different animal. I would expect the feral dog to behave differently than the wolf. All this being said, I do wish it were allowed to let threads go astray as the best discussions come about that way. If I started a thread that went astray into such good discussion, I'd be thrilled. __________________ MACH4 Aslan MXF, TQX, AXP, AxJP, OFP, RAE, EAC, EJC, OCC, WV-O, TN-N, CD, TG-N, RS-N, JS-N, R2-CL, CGC, TDI, FFX-AG (10 year old sheltie) Jericho CD, RAE, OA, NAJ, CDX, R1-MCL, CGC, FFX-AP (8 year old hard of hearing sheltie) Laika NAJ, CGC (retired 14 year old American Eskimo) Asher MX, AXJ, AXF, RN, CGC (4 year sheltie)

01-15-2009, 05:54 PM	#5
agilityk9trainer Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,033 Blog Entries: 27 Rep: 215 Unique Rep: 58	I see. __________________ MACH4 Aslan MXF, TQX, AXP, AxJP, OFP, RAE, EAC, EJC, OCC, WV-O, TN-N, CD, TG-N, RS-N, JS-N, R2-CL, CGC, TDI, FFX-AG (10 year old sheltie) Jericho CD, RAE, OA, NAJ, CDX, R1-MCL, CGC, FFX-AP (8 year old hard of hearing sheltie) Laika NAJ, CGC (retired 14 year old American Eskimo) Asher MX, AXJ, AXF, RN, CGC (4 year sheltie)

01-15-2009, 11:06 PM	#6
Draco Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,445 Rep: 79 Unique Rep: 35	Discussion started in the other thread on domestic dogs surviving in the wild... I'm kinda building on the prior thread's info. Agility brought up about herding dogs not having the kill instinct... I'd hedge a bet that a hungry Border Collie would leap the fence from rounding up critters to hunting them pretty quickly. Hunger is a POWERFUL motivator! Thus some of the herders stand a good chance of making the cut. Shelties on the other paw, like Calypso was, that I am not so sure on. Calypso would strike and bite at trees on our walks, and even once bit a light pole with a resounding 'boooongggg!' It was one of her quirks. Given the typical reserved of strangers part of a typical Sheltie personality, this would work to aid in survival... but it might also lead to starvation. Calypso's coat did not matt easily, but it was also not a typical Sheltie coat. Ashenpaw's coat is also not a heavy matting coat, and most of the Border Collies I have had the fortune to pet are not heavy matt coats. I know they vary... but that is a good point to consider: the balance between the coat for protection and potential problems with it getting in the way. Wolves and foxes have long, luxurious coats and generally do not have too many issues with infected matt sites. So, it would be dependent upon environment and circumstance. Natural selection would absolutely take make the choice here. What is nice about this topic's origin in the other thread is that it is pure speculation, this is all theorizing using logic on what would and what would not survive. Thus, technically no one is incorrect in their opinion. In the end, though, I still think that the dogs would mix rather quickly and become a wide range of mutts. I mean, you're not going to have German Shep's searching out other German Shep's only! Pretty much they will mix and mingle... what ends up contributing to the gene pool successfully is wide open! In THIS thread, Agility you point out that scientific theory taking years to be accepted, 20 years is somewhat average. It does take some time, and it should! Otherwise every crackpot idea would automatically be accepted and we'd all be spinning in circles wondering what is true, and what is not. Once a theory is proposed, a lot of teams will often poke and prod at it, seeing how sound it is. I'll come back to this thread and post more when I am more awake... long COLD day at work... it was in the minus twenties today (not counting windchill), that saps you when you're walking dogs after dark. Brrrrr! __________________ Training--the key to unlocking every dog's greatest potential. Have you unlocked your dog yet? Ash- CGC, RE, NAP Parker- CGC, RE Ion-CGC, RN Calypso, Herding the Shepherd's Flock in Heaven May 17th, 1995-March 9th 2008.

01-16-2009, 01:04 AM	#7
applesmom Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,991 Blog Entries: 7 Rep: 325 Unique Rep: 76	I'd suspect that very few dogs of any breed that had been raised as pets would make it past the first month. As those who did survive began to reproduce, each sucessive generation would become wilder, stronger, better acclimated and more able to survive. In Coppingers book he mentions that the established groups of feral dogs he studied were similar in size. A couple of years ago (maybe longer) a rescued GSP named Everett managed to escape from his new owners in Wisconsin. The last I heard; he's still living in the woods, is sighted at least once a week coming into local yards to play with other dogs. He's completely terrified of humans and has managed to avoid every well placed, food filled trap that's been set out for him. Strangely enough he does manage to sneak in and eat the occasional food set out in the open for him, even though he won't go near the traps. He's neutered so he can't reproduce and he's never been seen with any other wild dogs. Just the pets he visits to play with. He's become somewhat famous and all sightings are reported to the local game ranger and the local rescue. If I remember correctly he was originally surrendered because he was such a determined escape artist. As each day goes by there are more and more concerns about the advisability of continuing to try to trap him. Once caught he can't be released again. And after two years in the wild he may not be able to adapt again to a life with humans. Twenty years ago there was another GSP that was lost for 6 months. Once she was returned home, she was never the same dog and lived a fear filled life. Other hunting dogs have been lost and did not manage to survive past the first week or so. Though they're athletic, have a strong desire to hunt and are perfectly capable of killing to eat; by the time they catch on to the fact that they have to hunt for themselves, they're too weak to be successful. Plus if they don't have access to water, they can't survive. This would be the dilemma of just about any medium sized or large pet dog that found itself left to it's own devices away from civilization, trash cans and garbage dumps. IMO small dogs wouldn't have a chance! __________________ "I've been fleeced A well trained dog will make no attempt to share your lunch. He'll just make you feel guilty while you're eating it. Last edited by applesmom; 01-16-2009 at 01:08 AM..

01-16-2009, 02:04 AM	#9
applesmom Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,991 Blog Entries: 7 Rep: 325 Unique Rep: 76	I would think a decent sized terrier might have a better chance on its own than a dog bred for bird hunting. Bird dogs are bred to work with a hunter under the gun and to have soft mouths. A bird dog with a tendency to kill the birds would be a liability. Most Terriers are bred to be self hunters and tenacious. A plus in wild conditions. A dog that was born feral rather than a pet who suddenly found itself alone without a human would be two completely different situations and the outcomes would be different. __________________ "I've been fleeced A well trained dog will make no attempt to share your lunch. He'll just make you feel guilty while you're eating it.

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Feral dog behavior

12-31-2007, 01:38 PM	#2
Bugle Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: in the depths of the countryside in Middle England ! Posts: 1,312 Rep: 28 Unique Rep: 14	Well, I have always believed that scratch your dog and underneath you will see the wolf. Having lived with a wolf cross for 10 years, there is absolutely no doubt in mind that he was very different from any other dog I had ever owned or met. However, he was of course totally domesticated, house trained and vaguely obedient - ish ! If he could see a reason for being asked to do something ! So now the idea that our own "wolf" packs, in other words our domesticated dogs, should be run by us, alpha male and alpha female, using such strict rules regarding domination and control, is being challenged, because in a wild wolf pack this seemingly undemocratic way may be purely caused by environmental influences, rather than across the board. The reports of most lucky people who have lived with wild wolfpacks all seem to say the same thing - what a wonderful social structure wild wolves have, everyone knows their place, and alpha male and alpha female rule with a rod of iron, and it works. It's a fascinating theory ... and one that I think I will subscribe to for feral dogs and our own dogs, even in a large domesticated dog pack such as we see on Cesar Millan's tv programme. But I will need some persuading to accept that packs of wild wolves are run according to environmental conditions. If that were the case, surely all the various reports we read from Monty Sloane, Shaun Ellis, David thingey whose name I can never remember etc. etc. would be finding this for themselves. I certainly haven't read every piece of research by every wolf researcher, but I have read an awful lot (although it has to be said not for a few years), and I am sure I would have remembered something as controversial as this. It is a very interesting concept though and I will be most interested to read the other comments.

01-16-2009, 07:09 AM	#10
catz4m8z Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: rochester uk Posts: 559 Rep: 12 Unique Rep: 1	It all comes down to the characteristics we breed into them doesnt it? Terriers, if they had a high prey drive, could make do on rats, voles, rabbits, etc, but a toy dog would have no chance. But thenm again a toy dog probably wouldnt develop such a high fear of man. They are designed to want to be with people.

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