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Old 12-08-2008, 10:59 AM   #1
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Default Golden Retrievers are really Black?

This is a new one on me:

Quote:
Goldens are genetically black but look golden yellow due to their e genes restricting the development of black pigment.
This is part of a description of "somatic mutations" which give a dog more than one base color.

http://www.ashgi.org/color/Aussie_so...mutations.html

Anyone ever hear of this?
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:20 AM   #2
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Kind of the same way that horses that look white, are actually called 'grey' because their skin is black, they just lose pigmentation on the hairs?

I hadn't heard it before in relation to Goldens, but it doesn't surprise me.

Simba is going a lot darker as she ages, but only the tips of her fur have got the black pigmentation and the base is still pale. Dog hair is fascinating! I just can't quite understand how even one hair can have different colours in it.

I expect you'll be inspecting Sophia for black hairs now!
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Old 12-08-2008, 01:49 PM   #3
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Interesting info.
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Old 12-08-2008, 03:43 PM   #4
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being thet the first golden, was born out of a litter if black "Black wavey coated retriever". I gan understand where this has come from.

more on the Golidie's history

http://www.thegoldenretrieverclub.co.uk/

Edit: look under HISTORY and then BREED ORIGIN
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Old 12-18-2008, 11:02 AM   #5
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Flat coated retrievers are one of the oldest retrieving breeds.... they come in three colors.... black, liver are the accepted colors..... yellow is the only disqualifying fault in the breed,.... at one time any dog that retrieved was called a retriever.....

Golden retrievers were developed from the yellow flat coated retriever .... as well as other breeds... occasionally you will find goldens that have mismarks or large areas of black fur that is a throw back to their ancestry.

I traced the pedigree of my kaelyn a very light colored English golden retriever (both parents are from UK kennels) back to these original flat coats..... if you go to K9data.com
and find a dog... and go back back back you almost always will eventually come to flat coated retrievers . It may take a bit of searching in my case I searched on Kaelyn, Shaynedoro's Pearls n Leashes and ended up at Lincolnshire Lad who brought me to the original flat coats in her pedigree as well as the now extinct breed of Tweed Water Spaniel

Here are two links for my girl Kaelyn..... the first you can see Nous (yellow) and Primrose (yellow) they were both flat coated retrievers, the second is for a dog called Wimpole Peter
and you can see that he is clearly marked as an FCR .... this brings us into the late 1800's in the UK where goldens were developed at Gusachen (spelling)

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=5803
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=21780


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Old 12-19-2008, 01:08 PM   #6
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This is interesting and it leads me to a question: are the genetics of coat color inheritance similar in Flatcoated / Golden Retrievers and Labrador Retrievers? Because it almost seems as though the Labrador Retriever is a single breed which comes in Black, Chocolate or Yellow, while the Flatcoat / Golden could conceivably be considered the same breed. Alternately it would be as if the Yellow Lab were to be broken out as a breed separate from the Black or Choccies. Is that reasonable or am I off -base?
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Old 12-19-2008, 01:21 PM   #7
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I never heard of that but true to the facts I guess? I never owned an all white horse, but the ones I had with white on them had white skin as what a pain to keep it white, we scrubbed till it ended up pink for a show.

I had Leopard Applaoosa, the white under the spots was white skin with black or red spots all over the horse, we had one named Redgie a stallion that never produced a leopard either. He came from a two solid parents, weird how things come out breeding?
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Old 12-19-2008, 05:41 PM   #8
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I dont know much about lab color genetics so i cant fully answer that

when we talk about flat coat color genetics we have black which is always dominant
liver which is recessive and you need two livers to get a liver
and yellow which is similar to liver
it might be similar to labs in that yellow is also recessive and you need two yellows to get a yellow but flat coats can carry all three colors....

goldens of course are just gold and the shades vary,... but recently i have been reading a bit more about golden color genetics and there is some talk that cream is a more dominant color than was once thought.....
keep in mind that goldens are not an alternative color.... like in labs and while it was originally developed from the flat coats there were other breeds mixed in like the tweed setter which is now extinct and there are distinct breed differences... it is not just a color issue.

however, the black that you talked about earlier is a throwback to those originally wavy/flat coated retrievers....

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Old 12-19-2008, 05:55 PM   #9
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It does sound similar to the inhertiance of coat colors in Labs, at least to me.

http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html
http://www.peteducation.com/article....+2109&aid=2819

Also I find it interesting that Goldens in the UK tend to be bred with a color that I would associate with a Yellow Lab- more like a cream, as opposed to the honey or even cinnamon color we have in the US.
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Old 12-19-2008, 06:17 PM   #10
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My dogs are all of UK heritage, and are significantly lighter in color.... than the majority of show dogs that we see here..... however, there are darker dogs in the UK that are more similar to the coloring we see here, however, those dogs are usually thought of as field dogs....

as far as lab genetics, i thought that lab genetics weren't quite as cut and dry as they are in flat coats and not a straight inheritence but again I dont know enough about it.
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