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Old 11-28-2008, 02:23 PM   #1
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Default When is a breed a breed? Examples of possible "new" breeds

I thought that since the question of breed development comes up fairly often it might be useful to look at a recent example. Years ago we humans selected traits like herding, scenting, or vermin hunting ability, so it's legitimate to ask how come we don't try to develop new breeds to meet the needs of modern man.

There is an example which is fairly recent and that is the Australian Labradoodle. Guide Dogs have to be intelligent, have good temperaments, and also be fairly large and are often Labrador Retrievers. As anyone who has owned a Labby knows, a huge drawback of these dogs is they shed terribly.

Starting in the 1970s, an attempt was made to create a new breed for the purpose of aiding disabled human beings.

Quote:
In the mid 1970’s The Australian Guide Dog Association received an inquiry from a blind lady in Hawaii, requesting a guide dog that would not cause her allergies to flare. The reason she chose Australia was due to the relaxed Quarantine requirements.
Because Australia is an island with strict quarantine laws, dogs exported to Hawaii would be able to get off the plane and go straight home with no quarantine. The Australian Guide Dog Association had nothing to offer, so they set a task to try to breed such a dog. Their Labradors were tried and proven, so breeding with them was the obvious choice.
http://www.laa.org.au/ala-lab/history.htm

The Labradoodles that were developed were not simply "F1 crosses" (throw together a Labby and a Poodle) but instead were carefully developed over the years and include several parent breeds.
Quote:
The Australian Labradoodle currently consists of 6 different breeds in its origin. The Confirmed and Approved Parent Breeds of the Australian Labradoodle are the Poodle (Standard, Miniature,Toy), Labrador Retriever, Irish Water Spaniel, Soft Coated Wheaton Terrier (Pure Irish lines only) American Cocker Spaniel and English Cocker Spaniel.
http://www.cfldoodles.com/breedhistory.html

There are a few dark spots in the history of the Australian Labradoodle, but also two bright ones.

One is that the ALAA is working towards breed recognition.
Quote:
The ALAA has contacted the AKC, although the Australian Labradoodle does not currently meet its definition of a possible purebred, the ALAA is taking all the necessary steps to allow the AKC to accept the ALAA's database into it's foundation services program at a future date.
http://www.goldendoodles.com/Resourc...abradoodle.htm

The other is that the ALA requires health tests for eye diseases.
Quote:
WORLD FIRST COMPULSARY DNA TESTING prcd-PRA
The Australian Labradoodle Assoc. is the first dog breed association worldwide to require compulsory DNA testing for ‘prcd-PRA.
Prcd-PRA is a genetic eye disease that Labradors, poodles and at least 28 other dog breeds carry. The disorder causes cells in the retina at the back of the eye to degenerate and die. There is no treatment or cure for PRA.
http://www.laa.org.au/

From what I know, the breeding program to develop Guide Dogs has been abandoned, but there are breed clubs who appear to be taking the breed development seriously.
So there are Labradoodles and then there are Labradoodles. Some are just the offspring of two different purebreds and some are somewhere between a carefully crafted mix and a new purebred.
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Old 11-28-2008, 02:34 PM   #2
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Thanks for some of the links being in large print. Very interesting.
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Old 11-28-2008, 02:35 PM   #3
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I knew that they were bred for a reason by a Australian but now them ones are being made less respectable dogs by people just crossing any Labrador to and poodle and charging loads for them.
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Old 11-29-2008, 03:43 PM   #4
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I do think that there's a possibility that the Australian Labradoodle might be recognized as a registrable breed one day. It's going to take a while though!

As so often happens there is more than one group working toward acceptance. The second group is a splinter group who started off with a legitimate agenda. Then they got careless and muddied the waters by allowing volume breeders to become part of their registry.

When a new breed is legitimately in the process of being developed the number of breeders must be kept to a minimum in order to maintain spotless and easily verifiable records. This can't be done with thousands of breeders involved.

There's another newly developed breed which IMO stands an excellent chance of becoming recognized one day if they can manage to keep their act together and keep the high volume breeders out of the equation. That's the Alaskan Klee Kai.
http://akkaoa.org/linda.html

Both breeds if legitimately bred to the standard for generations (not just by crossing two purebred dogs) could be positive additions in the currently changing society of pet owners.

None of the current designer mixes that are a product of first generation outcrossing only will ever have a chance of becoming recognized by anything other than a pet registry for mixed breeds.

It takes extremely dedicated breeders to produce new breeds. High volume breeders aren't going to forfeit the time and money they can make on selling their mixed breeds to gullible buyers, to develop a legitimate new breed.
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Old 12-02-2008, 01:25 AM   #5
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Cockapoos have been around for decades yet are still not recognized

Last edited by sharky; 12-02-2008 at 02:11 PM..

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Old 12-02-2008, 05:25 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
Cockapoos have been around for decades yet are still recognized
They have only been around since around 1998 , which does not quite equate decades, and they are not a breed they are a Crossbreed of two Pedigree dogs. Think you meant to say still NOT recognised .

Sorry but just another two breeds crossed and a silly so called designer name stuck on so the breeders can charge mega bucks and most of which will have been bred without the necessary health checks.

Now I will get back on topic

At least Labradoodles were originally bred for a reason and some care was taken, and unfortunately they did not prove to be entuirely hypallergencic, but now ,at a least in the UK ,a lot of breeders have jumped on the band wagon , because they have become popular and not are not being selective in their breeding and again a lot of times some are breeding without carrying out the necessary health checks.

I don't object to the dogs my objection is the breeders making money by calling them by afancy name and as I say breeding willy nilly with no health checking . As would be my opinion with any breeder who breeds without having the necessary health checks for their particular breed done.

As regards recognition in Australia UI agree with Applesmom
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Old 12-02-2008, 06:42 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borzoi mad View Post
Now I will get back on topic

At least Labradoodles were originally bred for a reason and some care was taken, and unfortunately they did not prove to be entuirely hypallergencic, but now ,at a least in the UK ,a lot of breeders have jumped on the band wagon , because they have become popular and not are not being selective in their breeding and again a lot of times some are breeding without carrying out the necessary health checks.

I don't object to the dogs my objection is the breeders making money by calling them by afancy name and as I say breeding willy nilly with no health checking . As would be my opinion with any breeder who breeds without having the necessary health checks for theie particular breed done.

As regards recognition in Australia UI agree with Applesmom
I am not sure if well will ever see reconision of such breeds, but agree with the above

The Australian LD looks interesting..but here in the UK,,,, there is no conformity to the LD or any other doodle for that matter.... you never see two that look alike

And we only have to look at the NI (northern Inuit) and the other break of groups in these X breeds..now there is a can of worms to be opened... the left hand does not know what the right is doing and when they do they fall out and breakaway.... for all the bickering and secrecy in this breed they will never get to the stage of KC recognition.

Getting back to the labradoodle... I understand the reasons stated above , well no not really.

If you need a large no shedding intelligent breed to do service work..what is wrong with the poodle../Giant Schnauzer...and so on.

When creating new breeds, think of any of our breeds... in the past founders of the breed would have strict guidelines.... and whether we like it or not euthanasier would be one of them. for instance

Decide what traits you want in the breed, set a breed standard down... and then by mating A to B produces a litter of pups... maybe two of those will meet the new standard... they would be kept.. bred to each other , and the rest would be discarded...(culled) ..and the cycle would continue down the line till you are breeding "type" to "types" ...records would be kept, strict codes of ethics will have been recorded... in time you would on a regular basis be producing " type"

Nowadays... all that would need to be involved would not be morally excepted... culling/ inbreeding.


And this is why the LD , NI , and any other doodle we see as far away from being a recognized breed as when they first appeared on the market.

The trouble being a litter of LD may produce 2/3 of type, the rest will be sold as pets... and there is lies the problem....because once you sell a pup on..you have no control over the breeding rights...yes you can endorse them , but as they are not KC registered , the endorsement means nothing.

Then you have a owner of an unsuitable LD... who in their mind thinks theirs is the perfect example of a LD...breeds it to another poor specimen maybe even another lab/poodle, going back to F1`s resulting in the cycle of poor quality pups, not to mention the health of these dogs.... another midfield.

That does not mean it cant be done an example of this is the Russian Black terrier, the first breed standard was recorded in 1958...and acknowledged by the F C I in 1993.... I think they where accepted on the Imported register in the UK in 2000, and fully recognised in 2004 in the USA.... and I think in the last few yrs, they have been able to gain CC`s at Championship level.

So with meticulous dedication it can be done..but as with most of these new breed they are world wide, no regulations on breeding and no standard...the BRT was an closed shop, only being exported when the breed was true to type.


And do we really need any more breeds, I am not so sure.
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:58 AM   #8
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Sorry Borzoi mad, have to disagree with you here. I started pet grooming when I was 16, I am now 49 and I learned to groom on already mature cocapoo's, so they have been around for decades. Don't mean I consider them a breed, but they have been on the scene forever, I actually blame them for a lot of the now whatever a poo's and doodles that petshops and byb's are charging an arm and a leg for. And the sad part is that I can't ever remember meeting a bad tempered cocapoo out of the hundreds I've groomed, it's really a shame more wasn't done in actually making them a breed, but they still remain a byb or apoo dog.

And yes, labradoodles and goldendoodles started with good intentions, but unfortunally those good intentions ended up in the wrong hands and now if you look into petfinder or rescues, you'll find more of them than purebred standard poodles. I have talked to many labra or golden doodle owners and they are either fantastic dogs or nut cases, they are mix breeds, you can't tell how the dice will roll.
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:18 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barbiespoodle View Post
Sorry Borzoi mad, have to disagree with you here. I started pet grooming when I was 16, I am now 49 and I learned to groom on already mature cocapoo's, so they have been around for decades. Don't mean I consider them a breed, but they have been on the scene forever, I actually blame them for a lot of the now whatever a poo's and doodles that petshops and byb's are charging an arm and a leg for. And the sad part is that I can't ever remember meeting a bad tempered cocapoo out of the hundreds I've groomed, it's really a shame more wasn't done in actually making them a breed, but they still remain a byb or apoo dog.

And yes, labradoodles and goldendoodles started with good intentions, but unfortunally those good intentions ended up in the wrong hands and now if you look into petfinder or rescues, you'll find more of them than purebred standard poodles. I have talked to many labra or golden doodle owners and they are either fantastic dogs or nut cases, they are mix breeds, you can't tell how the dice will roll.
Not in the UK from I have learned they only started in 1998, perhaps I should have made that clearer.
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The picture is of My Two Borzois Pellow and Rye I also had a Golden Oldie named Ludmilla who went to the Bridge on 14.03.07 and my special wee man Brodie who sadly went to the bridge on 22 August 2008 All loved and missed as are all the others who have gone before I still have little Faun my dachshund and last but by no means least Keri the Birman Cat.

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Last edited by skunkstripe; 12-02-2008 at 11:50 AM.. Reason: fixed quote tags

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Old 12-02-2008, 11:38 AM   #10
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Well just think of JRTs they are not designer, but they have been around for ages, and they have yet to be standardised if I am right its just the Parsons that is actually really classed as a breed, correct me if I'm wrong so the new breeds might just always be what they are now.
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