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Old 02-08-2008, 11:01 AM   #1
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Default Disqualifying colors and patterns

Every once in a while I run across a website that describes how a particular or pattern (not a mismarking) is considered a disqualification and how this is unjust. Some of the sites amount to full-fledged rants that certain patterns which are normal in one breed are disqualifactions for "their" breed.
Some that come to mind are piebald Dachshunds, merle Chihuahuas, and parti Poodles, but I'm sure there are more.
So I am curious, what is the reasoning behind having certain patterns be disqualifications? Does it have anything to do with health, or is is more a matter of narrowing down the possibilities for a breed standard?
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:09 AM   #2
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I think it's horrid that the Pies aren't allowed - there are quite old photos of piebald patterned Dachs. It's politics pure and simple with the Pies. Someone got up someone elses nose. English Creams are a no no as far as color but they're allowed...however a breeder/judge brought them into the country so that's okay.

The Double Dapple that is another issue ... that's bad breeding pure and simple. With the lethel gene it's russian roulette with puppy's as the bullet.

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Old 02-08-2008, 01:30 PM   #3
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In the Uk I would say it mostly has to do with the breed standard,but there are some exceptions to this in certain breeds it can be that breeding certain colours can as Dauxside said be considered bad breeding , resulting in health issues in the puppies

Creams are accepted in the UK in Dachshunds,
The breed standard says no white except a spot on breast.

In Borzois any colour is acceptable.
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:36 PM   #4
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It might have to do with health reasons, or it might have to do with fashion. Like it or not, the conformation show ring is about looks, and how close a dog comes to whatever it was we decided the ideal should be.

Moree is pure bred, but not show quality. Why? He's got a great Aussie build and gate, great Aussie personality. However, he's a merle who didn't merle. His blue eye isn't fully blue. He has almost no silver in him, and he does not have the really thick double coat. So, he can't win. Once you know a trait can't win in the ring, why put people through the stress - call it a disqualification and move on.

As part of that, there are also colors/patterns that win more in the show ring, so dogs have been bred for that. My MIL, who showed Scotties for years (mind you, 30+ years ago) would tell you that merles used to be really rare. But, they won in the show ring, and now, when was the last time you saw an Aussie in the best in group ring that wasn't a merle? I think I might once have seen a tri, but I'm not certain.

And while better breeding may have helped this, information on Aussies, and merles in particular, will tell you that the blue eye is a magnitude more likely to have from birth, or develop, vision problems from cataracts to actual blindness. So, because something won in the show ring, a major health issue was over looked.

Other breeds, like cockers, get separate groups for their different colors, so that black coated dogs don't compete against blondes or parti colored dogs.

It's all about politics, fashion, and winning.

Dogs were once bred to do things. Now they're bred to look a certain way. I don't think we've done them a service.

(As a caveat, I do not have anything against pure bred dogs, responsible breeders, or people who show conformation. I do have issues with the archaic rules systems set up by the AKC and other regulatory bodies.)
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:02 PM   #5
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I don't look at conformation as "for the looks" because movement plays a big part, or should. Looks as far as "structure" should be the issue because that's what the breed's distinction is partly based on. So, I am for conformation showing, and honest wins...not faces or money over correctness.

However, and this is strictly my opinion, color should not be an issue unless it is creative of health problems.

For those that may not know I'm going to go a bit lengthy regarding some colors and patterns in the Dachshund. I do apologize...feel free to skip this post

Isabella, while not desirable are acceptable in Dachshunds and have been seen in the show ring. Isabellas colored dachshunds can and often do have Color Dilution Alopecia. This problem also occures in blue and tan dogs and Isabella and tan dogs. CDA cause skin that is subject to allergies and infections. These dogs are often very sensitive to hot and cold temperatures and cannot tolerate being outside for any length of time. Yet they are "acceptable" DCA colors.

The single Dapple is a pattern, the pattern exhibit patches of lighter color intermingled with patches of the self color, sometimes with a patch of white hair on the chests. The dapple gene in dachshunds is the same as the "merle" gene which is seen in Australian Shepherds and Collies. This is an acceptable pattern.

The dapples to dapple, aka Double Dapple, carry the lethel gene creating the potential for nighmare puppies. This is an unacceptable "pattern" by DCA and rightly so.

Piebald is simply a white-spotting pattern superimposed over any self color; there is no variation in the color of the solid spots or patches as there are in dapple Dachshunds.

True piebalds never have blue eyes, always have white tail tips, and never have shading within their body spots. The amount of white on a piebald is variable, ranging from a full or partial white collar, white chest, belly, and feet, and a white tail tip, to an almost pure white dog with a patch of color on the head and at the base of the tail.

This wide range in the amount of white on a piebald is simply part of the piebald pattern and all variations are acceptable, although from a health standpoint, dogs with a lot of white, especially on the head and ears, are not desirable as there is the possibility of deafness. Ticking may or may not be present however it is part of the "pattern" of Piebald.

I do not personally agree with DCA (I am not a DCA member - I am not an active breeder) that this is not an acceptable "pattern." It's been acceptable for years, until just recently. There are many AKC Piebald champions in various coats. So far, to my personal knowledge no one has seen any lethel genetics associated with the pattern and no overal singular health problem that has been related to the pattern.

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Old 02-08-2008, 02:30 PM   #6
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No it's not always all about fashion, politics and winning. In many cases it's about the welfare of the dogs.

In the GSP any markings of lemon, yellow or tan is a disqualification. This disqualification came about because unethical breeders were crossing Pointer with GSP's in hopes of producing further ranging dogs.

These two breeds are completely different in temperament and conformation. They were originally bred for doing a similar job under completely different circumstances.

Mixing the two brought about some disastrous results in some cases mostly relating to mental stability. Many of the calls I got over the years were regarding these mixes that were sold as purebred GSP's. They were often uncontrollable and neurotic!

If DNA testing had been available at that time, the unethical breeders could have been stopped in their tracks. In the local situation we knew who the breeder was but couldn't prove a darned thing.

In the case of the GSP the color disqualification is a very important tool in weeding out the dogs carrying pointer genes and eliminating the possibility of potential behavioral problems being passed on in the breed.

I've also witnessed personally a litter of dachsunds in which some were born without any eyes due to a breeder that was completely ignorant of the problems in mixing lethal color genes.

It's very noble to believe that all dogs are created equal and color disqualifications are unfair, cruel or just plain wrong. But when breeding those colors create a potential for causing disatrous effects on the mental or physical qualities of innocent dogs, that compassion is often misplaced.
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Old 02-08-2008, 03:42 PM   #7
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Again, I have nothing against responsible breeders, and I think most of us here feel that there is (or should be) a special little spot in the afterlife for the irresponsible ones.

In some cases, coloring marks mixed breeding, or irresponsible breeding, such as in the case of your GSPs or the double dapple doxies (sadly, in our classifieds, people try to tell you the double dapple is special, and charge lots more money for it.)

In other cases, though, such as with the piebald doxies, there's no reason other than fashion or politics.

And as I pointed out earlier, the fashion in Aussie coloring actually increased a health risk in the breed.

A responsible breeder shouldn't need color or pattern to be disqualifying in shows in order to breed it out, if it is harmful to the dog. (A breeder who doesn't know this hasn't done enough research on their dogs and is therefore not responsible.)

The judges should know that a certain color or pattern is harmful to the dogs, and therefore know it can never be close enough to the breed standard to win.

But if a color is just a color (not a poor health indicator), and form, shape, temperment, etc are all spot on, the color shouldn't matter.
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:08 PM   #8
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Quote:
But if a color is just a color (not a poor health indicator), and form, shape, temperment, etc are all spot on, the color shouldn't matter.
I agree with the above statement as long as there have been no unethical and covert infusions of other breeds such as in the lab weimie crosses being promoted as silver labs!

Sadly, many of those who protest the loudest against color disqualifications, (BYB, for profit breeders, and careless or clueless pet owners/breeders ) either don't know or don't care about the many truly valid reasons for color disqualifications.
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:11 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applesmom View Post
Sadly, many of those who protest the loudest against color disqualifications, (BYB, for profit breeders, and careless or clueless pet owners/breeders ) either don't know or don't care about the many truly valid reasons for color disqualifications.
That is exactly why I started the thread. My hope is to find out more about which patterns are associated with health problems and which are simply not "aesthetic." Of course those which cannot be produced unless the dogs have been cross-bred are also interesting.
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:03 PM   #10
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I feel an ethicial breeder does not breed for mis markings in their breed no matter if the litter is for show or pets.

You should breed for the color or pigmentation appropriate for the breed. Example of course the European Shepherds should not have white feet, or any white on them, nice deep pigment, no white dogs and I have never seen black ones in Seiger show confirmation classes?

Breeding to keep your breed properly marked is the only way to do it as mis markings look bad, are passed on and on and get worse in each litter if parents are used for this reason. It should be corrected no matter what your going to do.

I also feel confirmation makes for the beauty or cutness or correction of the breed one buys. Not buying an inferior puppy just because of the breed. Even if discounted puppies of purebred should look like the breed should in color, no bad markings, good confirmations, temperments tops and good movers, agile and I breed for drive to work.

These are things Breeders should and better breed for or quit!!! Bad markings look very bad to those that know better? Why own a purebred dog you pay for with a white spot on the sides or belly or head etc.? Does not make any sense to me to even look at a litter like this as it is just plain poor breeding genetics. Unless it is a standard thing with a certain breed?
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