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Old 11-26-2007, 10:53 AM   #1
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Question Loose breed standards, tight breed standards

This is something that I have been interested in for quite a while and we have a lot of knowledgable members, so I thought I would ask here.

I have made a kind of study of the development of many different breeds, and it strikes me that some standards seem very tight, others loose, and still others puzzle me.

An example of a "tight" standard is IMO the one for the Golden Retriever. They all really look alike, have the same size and coat type. Color can vary a little, and the ones in the UK seem to be blonder than most in the US, but that's about it.

Then on the other extreme to me are the Dachshunds, which come in three different sizes, three different coat types, and pretty much allow all colors and patterns.

One difference that puzzles me is the one between the Norwich and the Norfolk Terriers. It's a matter of the ears being up or down, otherwise it's the same dog. There is even a parent club for both breeds.

So, can anyone shed some light on why some breed standards seem strict, while others, ones which might even justify splitting off into several breeds, allow such a variety?
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:02 AM   #2
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I'm not sure about all these, but I have noticed the US goldies tend to be darker. Like your Sophia, my first thought was that she wasn't a full golden (when I first joined), but then I've seen more on this forum and a lot just tend to be darker. My first thoughts were because I've never seen a golden so dark, almost a reddy colour. It's such a pretty colour, shame we don't see more! Most of the ones here are a cream colour.
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:04 AM   #3
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I don't know, but maybe there are older and younger breeds? and with the younger one has gone more on the line applesmom mentioned last night in the other thread? or they have seen so much more of the various early instead of a pup here and there that they decided to take keep em all? Might be what the people are used to too. Ex Goldens have been Golden for how many years? I think if a black golden was born people would go nuts? Just a thought and I have no clue if it's right or not..
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:33 AM   #4
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perhaps it just depends on what was acceptable in the beginning stages of the breeds development, im thinking that if the people or person that developed the breed accepted it to look diffrent ways then today it is fine also, but i think if the developer had a strict set of guidlines that he wanted for the breed then there are strict guidlines today.
Now this is just a thought of course, I am not an expert on these things
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Old 11-26-2007, 12:44 PM   #5
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Maybe it depends on the type of person that wrote the guidelines to begin with and really nothing to do with the dogs at all. Some are more acceptable of differences and others are rigid about everything being the same.

I know you've asked for expert opinion but my hubby and I have been talking about this alllll night long, so I still haven't gotten it out of my system.

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Old 11-26-2007, 01:25 PM   #6
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The distinction isn't actually about the structure of the dog as in the case of Dachshunds, poodles, cockers etc. Cockers are divided by color, poodles by size and dachshunds by size, and type of coat. Even the tiny Chihauhas are divided by coat type.

The over simplified explanation is; many sizes and/or coats are acceptable in some breeds. The variation in size and color has been there since the breed was developed. The divisions began for ease of judging in the show ring and to provide the opportunity to compete against dogs with a similar size or color.

Because of their popularity, if all of the variations of these breeds competed in one ring It would take an entire day to judge them; a handler could only handle one dog a day and there would only be one winner. The split classes provide for faster judging, less time in the ring for the dogs and handlers and more opportunities to finish a dog as a champion of that breed!

With all the variations of colors, coats and sizes, they're all still the same breed and have been right along. The show ring is the primary reason for the divisions.
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Old 11-26-2007, 02:02 PM   #7
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Good post

I do wonder though. Species evolve over a period of time though what if different breeds were evolving as well to fit their habitat changes (ie, ozone depletion which i don't necessarily believe but just as an example) and then we see these changes as not per the norm so we keep trying to breed it out of the gene pool and then one day they actually need it but we bred it out of them lol.

I don't know, I obviously am seeing things from a purely zoological/biological aspect as opposed to conformational and aesthetic aspects

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Old 11-26-2007, 02:08 PM   #8
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Great postys guys
I was trying to explain it kinda like applesmom but unfortunately im not very good with words but I definitly agree with her post
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Old 11-26-2007, 02:55 PM   #9
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I found this on another forum where they were talking about the same exact thing we're talking about (even the same website started it all) 2 years ago and this quote puts in to words exactly what I was trying to say (from a biological, genetic, and evolutionary standpoint.)

Quote:
This world would never have gotten anywhere if standards were placed on everything, and nothing outside of those standards was ever allowed to grow and develop—we would still be in the Stone Age!-- Seijun 6/3/05

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Old 11-26-2007, 03:04 PM   #10
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The Dachshund was a German founded breed used for a variety of reasons. types vary from mini and colors, wired haired, smooth coat, long coat. Colors can vary from blk/tan to all black or all brown. The word Dachshund in Gereman means Badger. They were bred to scent, chase and flush badgers out. Smaller ones were to hunt rabbits or mini ones. Referred to in joking manner as hot dogs, weiner dogs etc. Most common colors are red/blk or tan, wild boar, chocolate brown, fawn, brindle, piebald, and a lighter "boar" red. Stubborn to train and difficult also.
The Norfolk is similar in size and coat to the Border, but his head is fox like in looks. This breed derived in Great Britian and is in the Terrier group. Friendly great pets. they are very similar to the Norwich except for the ears. I think also breeder started to change colors for showing distinction and coats as in the Dachshund, Cocker spaniels, poodles. This as said makes judging in a class quicker and easier and gives people a choice of also. Same also is the standard Schnauzer and mini, gives people that like these a choice and to be judged accordinly different because of size. If we looked at many breeds, humans have changed the coats, colors to win at dog shows mostly. Also, changing the confirmation also.
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