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Old 10-11-2007, 07:41 AM   #1
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Default Do you think a dog should have a CH before breeding?

That Worlds thread really got me thinking about the importance of pedigrees.
20 dogs are competing against each other over a few years time. All compete together in the same competitions and make it to the top levels. They are ready for the final competition and Jane Doe steps in and says, Wait, you 8 can't go because you don't have a pedigree. Doesn't matter that all were competing and got to the same level, the deciding factor that made some go on was the pedigree.

So that makes me think. How important is a pedigree? Jane Doe didn't even say it had to be a good one. I mean BYB and puppymillers can supply a pedigree, so my question(s) is this.

What makes a good pedigree?
Do you think a dog should be CH before being bred?
Do you think a dog should have working titles before being bred?
Are health tests enough and titles don't matter?
Are titles important? If so what kind?
What are your thoughts?

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Old 10-11-2007, 07:48 AM   #2
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Now to answer my own question:

I think a dog should have a working title that proves the dog is capable of doing what they were originally bred to do. Or at least proof. There are some kind of tests or activities for every breed out there. Hunt tests, earthdog, herding, sledding, etc. I am not talking companion titles like agility, obedience, flyball, etc. While those are great, they show a dog is trainable but I believe the origianl purpose of the breed is much more important.If a show isn't necessarily available, maybe some videos of the dogs actually working. Many pyrenees still guard their flock. Show it in a video to potential owners that your dog can do what the original purpose was if you are unable to test for it.

After they achieve a working title, then they cna go for a CH, not before. I see sooo many breed in the breed ring that csnnot do wha thteir purpose is and many dogs who are working that don't meet the breed standard. I think both need to be met before a dog can breed.

So many people say, well we just want a pet, we don't care about all the titles and such, GREAT, go to the shelter. Or all litters tend to throw a pet quality pup as well.

Just my opinion as I feel with the number fo dogs we have dying everyday and the people breeding all these desgners for money, that there should be some kind of stricter requirements on breeding to ensure that each breeder is essentially bettering the breed.

Afterall, isn't breeding supposed to be about bettering the breed?

Again, this is all my opinion

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Old 10-11-2007, 07:50 AM   #3
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Personally dog titles mean nothing to me only the parents of my dogs I buy from Germany and Netherlands. I know then my dogs can produce working and show pups and they do. My pups are in search n rescue, bomb detecting, narcotics, protection work, fly ball, etc. If I titled them I am too old to go around competing anyways. Did that for years and so much work and got no more from the foals . They were well bred horses, had titles and foals went for same. Entered foals in halter futurities local clubs we belonged to in Pa and sold some as they left the ring, but no huge price. I pay alot for my dogs importing, then pasting thousands in titles when I get $800 for Pet Quality puppies with no problem. I have hips n elbows done, give warranty on those of OFA at two, and 21 day health warranty to take to their vet. For that low price I cannot do all the expensive tests done and not charge three grand on pups, it just seems like cheating people. Pups are fine!!!
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Old 10-11-2007, 09:19 AM   #4
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Here are my thoughts on this and this is my opinion only, I realize others may differ that is ok.

A dog should have proven him/herself either in the ring or as a service dog, police dog/SAR dog. The dog should be free and clear of any genetic issues and have the proper temperament for the job it is being bred to do. Not all conformation dogs make good pets, not all police dogs make good poilce dogs and so on and so forth.

I have softened my stance on breeding CH only, I realized after many of these types of discussions that there are not just conformation dogs out there worthy of breeding.

A dog should be bred to better the breed ( IE- free of hereditary faults and diseases, temperatment etc ). If a dog is being bred to do service dog work then is it not better to breed a dog that has done this type of work and is a champion at that ? I think so. The same goes for police dogs, they need to have the proper temperament to do that type of work ( IE - Fearless ). This is not to say the dogs that have achieved the CH status can not be bred to work in these fields but generally they are bred more for conformation then they are to work. Hope that makes sense.

I do however beleive that a dog should be purebred and not deliberatley bred as a cross or mutt that I take issue with due to the fact there are far too many of these dying in shelters and pounds everyday. A dog should be bred only by a person whom has been mentored and knows exactly what they are breeding for, they have done ALL the health checks, temperment checks ETC. Only an experienced knowledgable person should be breeding dogs.

My 10 cents worth.

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Old 10-11-2007, 09:58 AM   #5
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I believe a dog should be proven in the ring, on the field, or on the job (any combination thereof would be even better) before being bred (after appropriate health testing & certifications). In addition, I think the ancestors of the dogs should be equally proven, health tested & certified clear. A simple CH is hardly enough reason to even consider breeding a specific dog.
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Old 10-11-2007, 10:31 AM   #6
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I agree wiht you guys that only a CH doesn't seem reason to breed IMO. So many that have a CH can't work.

I know in other countries, before a dog can even enter the breed ring they must have proven titles.

The shepherds must have a schH title, etc before they cna even enter the ring to try for CH.

Pesonally I would rather see a working title over a CH. What I hate seeing is people breeding because they will make great pets with no proof of anything. I feel even pets should have proof of a test. How is one to know for sure that they are good pets. a person can say all day long that their dogs are friendly and great pets and are so loving, BUT they are still in their own home and we are still taking that one persons word. The dogs are comfortable in their own home. I think an outside source like even a CGC to determine if they are even good "pets" if that is what is being bred for.

But again just my opinion.

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Old 10-11-2007, 10:44 AM   #7
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My views are 'non mainstream' but here they are.

Personally I value temperament and working ability. That of course can be proven by some objective test or competition, but also by actually doing the job the dog was bred to do.

Health testing is of the utmost importance-that and keeping track of genetically inheritable diseases in the lines. For that reason it is helpful to have 'pedigrees' but for me they do not have to be maintained by an external registry.

I place no value on conformation titles as can be won in AKC competitions. In the US these can be won with no proof that the dog has good temperament or working abilities. We have only to look at Springer Spaniels to see proof of that. And the reverse, namely that there are large numbers of dogs that IMO are worthy of breeding, will never get conformation titles. I am reminded of a gal I ran into long ago who breeds smooth collies. They don't finish because the ears are not 'tipped' quite right. But these dogs are a steady source of guide dogs for a training program near where she lives. That to me is far more important.

Again, just my opinion.
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Old 10-11-2007, 10:58 AM   #8
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I think conformation is equally important. I'd like to see AKC change its requirements for attaining the title of CH to include work specific to each breed's intended purpose.

I don't consider training at the level of CGC (or even CD) to be reasonable justification for defining a quality animal suitable for breeding. IMO, just about anything on four legs can accomplish that level with a handler who puts a little effort into their dog. (and, NO, I'm not discounting the accomplishment in any way, shape, or form ... as I ALWAYS find it commendable that people work & compete with their dogs). I could agree to your comments if we were talking about a number of titles or high level titles, but the lowest possible titles can be achieved by just about every dog & most of which are not suitable for breeding.
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Old 10-11-2007, 11:10 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KatzNK9 View Post
I think conformation is equally important. I'd like to see AKC change its requirements for attaining the title of CH to include work specific to each breed's intended purpose.
I agree conformation is important. I believe that after a dog can prove their working ability that they must also meet breed standard. Afterall the standard was set to be based on those dogs that were out working. if we can work and go away from the structure, we may also lose the working ability. Quite frankly, look at shepherds and labs. The difference between those ion the breed ring and those actually working

Quote:
I don't consider training at the level of CGC (or even CD) to be reasonable justification for defining a quality animal suitable for breeding. .
Oh I agree with you here. My statement about CGC was just because so many people say,w ell I am only breeding for people who wnats pets. I don't care about titles bacause they are just pets and great pets and will make other owners great pets. While I do not agree wiht breeding for pets at all, it was just a thought about how many people say they have great pets. Of course they are great pets in the home. Even those breeding for just pets should have a test(an outside source) to porve that they are good pets and not just take a persons word for it. Again not saying that they should be breeding but showimng that their is some sort of test all over.

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Old 10-11-2007, 11:19 AM   #10
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You must understand that every test, thyroid, heart, eyes, etc can be run on all my dogs or yours, it still does NOT stop a gene from way back slipping through into a litter of say 8 and one gets something. Genetics can be so scarey, knowing the parents are clean it only takes one of many 100 to come back to haunt you.
Yes, my dogs would have the Shutzhund Sport, if one does not continue to compete for a percent of their ability to keep the V and VA or even achiece thses highest ratings, I have yet anybody ask me about it. They just are not interested, I have shown what Gino can do on a sleeve, I lost a customer it frightened them so badly feeling he was a biter of people.
I feel dogs should compete I use a couple in Therapy to the eledery when my mother in law was in for a year now passed. They paid no attention to all the walkers, wheel chairs, etc. They just loved the attention. Do what you feel is right for what your future plans are in whatever your dog may excel in or accomplish a title in.
Enjoy the training, long hours and keep the dog in tune. I do not have time to do this and sending back to Germany costs one way $600 a flight plus thousands as the ero is worth much more than our dollar. I would not let a U.S. trainer do any of my dogs and charge as much or more.
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