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Old 07-28-2007, 12:35 PM   #1
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Question Inbreeding, linebreeding?

I thought these were the same thing but apparently they are not. More specifically, they might be the same thing for say cattle but not for dogs.
At any rate I found a site that helps explain what inbreeding is and how to measure it.

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What does inbreeding (in the genetic sense) do? Basically, it increase the probability that the two copies of any given gene will be identical and derived from the same ancestor.
...
If the father and mother are related, there is a chance that the two genes in the offspring are both identical copies contributed by the common ancestor. This is neither good nor bad in itself.
There is a number called the "inbreeding coefficient" that is the probability that copies of a gene came from the same ancestor. So say breeding a totally unlrealted male and female would have an inbreeding coefficient of zero, while repeatedly breeding brother and sister from successive generations (assuming it can be done) would eventually get you to an inbreeding coeffiecnt of one.
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Inbreeding.html

The author shows some data for Shelties (that seems to be all that she has).
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Inbreeding2.html
At least to my eye, the coefficient of 0.3 does not seem high-and the author says that Shelties are 'notorious for not breeding "true" ' although it sounds like she is using a stricter definition of 'breeding true' than what I am used to (multiple champion litters are rare, with particular problems in getting a litter which is all in size and all have correct ears.).

Finally she shows some inbreeding coefficients for individual Shelties.
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/ROM/Inbreeding.html

I am curious what other think about this information.
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Old 07-28-2007, 02:46 PM   #2
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This quote is from a long time breeder in a dicussion we had several years ago.

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COIs can be interpreted many ways. The dog folks love to run them based on 10+ generations, while the genetics folks will tell you (if you even want to bother with them at all) to run them at 5 generations or less. COI suggests the amount of inbreeding, but it can't tell you what genes are being concentrated. COI assumes that all dogs are equally prepotent; yet experience tells us that a single outcross 2-3 generations back can introduce a prepotent dog into mix that can change the entire structure of what genes are actually being passed. There is a dog in Wisconsin that’s the all-time NAVHDA UTI sire and the all-time AKC GSP MH sire. He is one of the most prepotent studs we’ve had in a generation in the breed, yet his COI is 2% and most of his offspring are the products of outcrosses. Yet on paper, his prepotency is completely unpredicted

There are several long time, knowledgeable, outstanding breeders of GSP's that do quite a bit of inbreeding on prepotent dogs with phenominal success. However they are familiar with every good and bad point of every dog in the first three generations and they know exactly what they're doing. They never breed based solely on pedigree or coefficient ratings. The dogs being bred must have everythiing it takes to make them worthy of breeding in the first place.

The pedigree is nothing but a roadmap to assist in knowing who the ancestors are. It's up to the breeder to find out as much as possible about those dogs before considering adding their genes to a breeding program.

I've seen enough of their coefficient charts to convince me that it would take dangerously close breeding (such as father to daughter then grandfather to granddaughter) that not even the most experienced would try, to raise the charts significantly.

If shelties have a problem with the litters not being uniform, inbreeding will most certainly help if they are basing their breeding on prepotent dogs. But they'd better know everything about those dogs before they start.

A prepotent dog is a dog whose pups are consistently very much like himself in all ways even when bred to outcrosses.
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Old 07-28-2007, 05:56 PM   #3
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What I know from breeding cattle and horses is that inbreeding and linebreeding are in essence the same thing. The difference comes in which animals are bred. Inbreeding tends to be parent x offspring or brother x sister, whereas in linebreeding the sire and dam will usually be two or three generations apart. As applesmom posted linebreeding tends to focus on a prepotent.

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Old 07-28-2007, 05:58 PM   #4
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Vanna's breeder sometimes linebreeds. She will line breed Vanna I think.
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Old 07-28-2007, 10:08 PM   #5
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We linebred, but we weren't into breeding enough to be willing to try inbreeding. To do inbreedng sucessfully you have to have two almost perfect dogs to begin with and be able to produce enough litters to prove to yourself that you're consistently getting the desired results without any disasters. You also have to have the fortitude to admit it to yourself and change direction if the breeding doesn't work out. Inbreeding is never used to correct faults but only to enhance excellence!

Our Beau's father was extremely prepotent. Anyone that is familiar with the breed can tell the instant they see one of his descendents that they're linebred to him. It's almost like cloning in phenotype, temperament and natural ability.

He was bred to the top winning bitch in GSP history twice and the results of the nick between those two was every breeders dream. Many of his pups have the same prepotency and they've rewritten the history of the breed in both performance and production.

However through very carefull and selective breeding the COI doesn't really go that high due to the prepotency factor in their descendents even though the majority are linebred off the original pair.
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Old 07-28-2007, 10:18 PM   #6
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While breeding my cats, I used a program that calculated coefficients & I considered it an integral part of my breeding decisions.
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Old 07-28-2007, 10:24 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KatzNK9 View Post
While breeding my cats, I used a program that calculated coefficients & I considered it an integral part of my breeding decisions.
What attributes do you breed for in cats other than phenotype and temperament?
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Old 07-28-2007, 10:32 PM   #8
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The author of this article is Sue Ann Bowling. She's an extremely well known sheltie genetics expert, and I have read her sheltie pages with much interest in the past. It is true that sheltie breeders really struggle for uniformity in the breed. Just look at my two dogs. One is undersized and looks almost exacly like a throwback to shelties of the 1920s. The other is oversized and of a color that is not acceptable. One has nice ears, the other does not. They both come from the same lines and breeder. You can get these variances in one litter, as the article states.

Sue Ann Bowling has another great pge on color genetics that I have throughly loved.
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Old 07-28-2007, 10:36 PM   #9
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I have a question. I know a sheltie breeder who breeds for performance. Her dog has produced some of the top agility shelties in the nation. While many of the offspring look like and act like daddy, not all do. Some have prick ears and thin coats, and some are undersized. And, a few haven't shined in the agility ring, but I suspect it's got to to with environment on some of these dogs. Does a proponent dog pass on all qualities of himself, or just some...like great agility performance and drive?
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agilityk9trainer View Post
I have a question. I know a sheltie breeder who breeds for performance. Her dog has produced some of the top agility shelties in the nation. While many of the offspring look like and act like daddy, not all do. Some have prick ears and thin coats, and some are undersized. And, a few haven't shined in the agility ring, but I suspect it's got to to with environment on some of these dogs. Does a proponent dog pass on all qualities of himself, or just some...like great agility performance and drive?
Great question! I'm thinking as I type so bear with me!

Not even the most prepotent of dogs reproduces himself in every puppy. Even when all qualities are passed on they can be in varying degrees. For example in the GSP the phenotype and natural ability would be there in the majority of the pups, but not all pups would have what it takes to become Dual Champions. I'm sure that even the dogs I mentioned above produced some average dogs that are tucked safely away in pet/hunting homes.

There are prepotent bitches too, often referred to as the Mother Line. So the outcome would also depend on the bitch he was bred to. Every first breeding between two dogs is actually a test breeding though they aren't usually referred to as such.

Nothing in breeding is guaranteed, but if he was tightly line bred to a top agility performance bitch the odds would be heavily stacked in the breeders favor. The ideal source for a puppy from this dog would be a repeat breeding that has already produced dogs high in drive and performance. Even then, not every puppy in the litter would be a candidate for a top winning agility dog.

Environment and training can have an effect, but if the drive isn't there, as you know, training can't bring it out. But bad training or a bad environment can hinder or even ruin even a dog with fantastic potential.
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