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Old 05-18-2007, 11:17 AM   #11
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Great post KatzNK9. I tent to agree with you, that you can train just about any dog to just about anything. Though certain breeds are going to excel at certain activites more than other. It is possbible to teach a hound to retrieve and a retiever to track game. It's just a matter of how well they will do it with their natural ability.

I also don't believe in the untainable or uncontrolable dog. It's just a matter of what extent it takes to find a way to make it happen.
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Old 05-18-2007, 11:22 AM   #12
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Weaves are hard to train in a sighthound hound because they do not want their bodies being touched by a object- and the same trait of aware of their bodies in the house ( same reason they are not really tail waggers etc as like Borzois were once palace dogs as well..) SAme thing with the tunnels.. and also retrieving is hard. Once the object stops moving- game over. The only one of the 5 borzois I have ever had retrieving was easy is Zubin- but really he is bringing it back to chase it again... On the other hand- any "stay" is sooooo easy... lol..

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Old 05-18-2007, 11:29 AM   #13
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I really didn't do much training. Both of them went through the normal potty training, but that was really it. My TF learned what words meant by me just saying things enough(he's got a rather extensive vocabulary now), and my Pap runs the place cause he's the "pretty dog"....lol.
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Old 05-18-2007, 11:42 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caincando1 View Post
Great post KatzNK9. I tent to agree with you, that you can train just about any dog to just about anything. Though certain breeds are going to excel at certain activites more than other. It is possbible to teach a hound to retrieve and a retiever to track game. It's just a matter of how well they will do it with their natural ability.

I also don't believe in the untainable or uncontrolable dog. It's just a matter of what extent it takes to find a way to make it happen.
I wish more people agreed. Dogs would be better for it.
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:11 PM   #15
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I hear what you are saying katznk9- but saying a "dog is a dog" is like saying a "cat is a cat". My maine coons didnt act like my siamese mix- not at all..
I am not saying that any breed cant be trained- its the method and the dog types understanding of what is being taught. Understanding natural instincts and using training methods that fit the dogs.... Not all dogs are "just a dog" and not all cats are " just a cat".. People not understanding that some of the oreintal cats will be more active, is like saying a golden will act like a border collie... Its understanding the inate-ness of the breed types.. And adjust accordingly..

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Old 05-18-2007, 12:15 PM   #16
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Not sure where you got the idea that I didn't believe there were natural instincts in any dog breed. That's quite true; however, all that means is it might likely take a unique approach to train the desired behavior or gain the proper amount of control.

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I approach dog training from an "all dogs are equal" standpoint & then adjust my methods to suit the individual dog. I assess the success or failure of my techniques according to each dog's response to that training. I attempt to be clear, concise, consistent, patient, & willing to adapt at all times.
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A dog is a dog. Period. Yes, I'll agree breeds & groups of breeds have tendencies that require adjustment in our training methods & daily activities with them. But, that's where it ends with me. I suggest if a specific dog can't be trained to do something, it is the handler who hasn't found a method to train it. To me, excusing or condoning inappropriate behavior from a dog based on breed bias is simply handler negligence. I haven't ever blamed a dog for being incapable of performing an exercise & certainly never associated it with any breed or group of breeds.
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:19 PM   #17
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I am not " accept poor behavior.." I am saying- understanding the traits of a breed type will help to manage your training. ..
Alot of people get border collies because " they are the smartest breed" however fail to understand- this dog needs a job- something to do- to encourage constructive behavior etc.. SAme reasoning in a shepherd- they get one to have a "protective dog"- only to not socialize the dog to make a balenced pet.. etc

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Old 05-18-2007, 12:24 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caincando1 View Post
Great post KatzNK9. I tent to agree with you, that you can train just about any dog to just about anything. Though certain breeds are going to excel at certain activites more than other. It is possbible to teach a hound to retrieve and a retiever to track game. It's just a matter of how well they will do it with their natural ability.

I also don't believe in the untainable or uncontrolable dog. It's just a matter of what extent it takes to find a way to make it happen.
I agree with you both.

I quite believe that a dog excells at certain behaviours merely because it has the genetics that predispose it to excell.

The human that has the genes to excell at gymnastics, say, would likely excell at martial arts, or perhaps, ballet... likely they'd excell at just about anything that required power, agility and grace.

There are certain genetic factors that cause dogs to behave in certain ways... but that is NOT to say that genetics outwieghs the dogs ability to LEARN.

To assume that a dog is such and such due to it's genetics and history limits the dog. It's like assuming that because I'm a bigger guy, that I solve problems exclusively with my body and never use my brain.

Now the fact that I PREFER to use my body, lol, shouldn't lead anyone to assume that I CAN'T use my brain. (Dispite some anecdotal evidence to the contrary, lol.) I don't think we should limit our dogs soley based on the strange and abstract idea that the whole breed is such and such a way.

I don't see any reason why the sighthound, lets just say, for arguments sake, can't be trained to walk nicely off leash and not bolt off after movement, anymore that I see any reason why an amstaff can't be trained to release a bite.

I just don't see it.

To me it seems more logical to conclude, for instance, that the Borzoi is not a big tail wagger, because its tail is heavy. And because of the narrow design of its hips, wagging the tail causes it to have to work harder to stay balanced than NOT wagging it's tail.

Now that seems more logical to me than the idea that it doesn't wag it's tail out of fear of knocking over the tzar's china... Now that's just my opinion... It's what seems logical to me... I could be wrong.
I'd just rather assume that our dogs are more capable than less.

I think that breed bias and assumptions based on the breed standard, limit the dog, and lessen it's value to society... give it fewer options.

For instance... Let's say you have a toy breed... and you can't control it... it's always barking, always agressive and you have no idea what to do. Maybe you're an elderly person and have no clue about dog handling... if you believed that the dog was 'just' a toy breed and incapable of anything other than being a house pet... you'd likely surrender the dog to a shelter or something.

But maybe .... just MAYBE... there's a k9 security firm in your area that needs a small high drive dog to search for drugs or bombs or whathaveyou in very small spaces.
If you gave THEM the dog, perhaps the dog would lead a wonderful and fullfilling life, but if you based your descision on what to do with your 'uncontrollable' dog on breed bias... he might not make it in the world.

Believing in the limits of your dog is less productive than believing that your dog has no limits...
As far as I can tell... and I've worked with some pretty far gone cases... a dogs limits are firmly rooted in the trainers limits.

I believe your dog can fly. Flap those ears you big bloodhound you! You can do agility too! You might not win the cup! But I love ya!!

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Old 05-18-2007, 12:26 PM   #19
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Quote:
I am not " accept poor behavior.." I am saying- understanding the traits of a breed type will help to manage your training. ..
I've read way too many posts on this board to believe that handlers/owners aren't willing to accept and excuse the unacceptable based on breed bias & myth.

If uncontrolled prey drive & recall refusals aren't inappropriate behavior, I don't know what is.

I'm still not sure where you're missing my point that adjustments should be made to suit the individual dog & if breed tendencies influence those changes, that makes total sense. Just don't try to convince me that if the dog isn't able to be controlled or trained that it isn't the handler's fault in not finding the appropriate technique to solve the problem.
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Last edited by KatzNK9; 05-18-2007 at 12:27 PM.. Reason: somebody slipped in a post ... had to add the quote

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Old 05-18-2007, 12:34 PM   #20
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I am beginning to think that any disagreement may be a misunderstanding that is based on semantics.

Presumably most of us would agree (maybe ?) that herding dogs are more likely to say, chase motorcyclists than retrievers, that retrievers are more likely to want to swim than say, terriers, and that terriers are more likely to borrow after vermin than say, greyhounds, etc.

This is all not to say that any individual dog from these breeds could not be trained to do something that comes more naturally to another dog. For example, could I train Sophia to herd sheep? If I were willing to invest enough time and energy, sure. But I would probably find it easier to train my neighbor's Border Collie. By the same token, I can play tennis, but all the lessons in the world will not help me become a professional tennis player since I lack the athletic ability.
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