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Old 05-10-2007, 11:09 AM   #71
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Sighthounds are one of the few types that has remained unchanged for 100's of years if not centeries. And one of the few types that have almost no genetic problems compared to the others.. Very little has changed over the years with the exception of Afghan hounds- and the coat changed because the breeders figured out if they didnt brush a dirty coat, it would not break and continue to grow in length... And yes- as a naturally calm docile breed that consider themselves " regal" they get "offended" with boysteriousness.. And what a walking greyhound with a dog has to do with breeding dogs- I have no clue... Or kool aid for that matter..

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Old 05-10-2007, 11:26 AM   #72
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Wow I miss all the good stuff. Doberman's I thought this was a very good post. I've made quite a few people mad when they said they were going to breed their dog, and went on my rant o' questions as to why....lol.

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That's what cats are for.
Yes. But some people want the playfulness, companionship, the willingness to listen that a cat can't offer. Cats are wonderful I have them I know. But I love dogs. A house is not a home without one. And if you don't have the room, or someone you're with doesn't want a big dog the toy dogs fit perfectly.
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Old 05-10-2007, 12:09 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by eb4i View Post
The Rottweiler made a fine hearding dog for the Romans... why did we outcross anything to get some OTHER kind of hearding dog?
Could be because borders were a little harder to cross so different societies and countries had to develop different dogs to do the same job.

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American German Shepherd lines with their very slanted backs IMHO are poorly designed, and this is where the hip problems and otehr issues come into play in their genetics. They are IMHO a shining example of breeding for a look and not function. German dogs tend to be more straight backed and have less hip problems as well as other health issues.
Actually the American GSD has a straighter back than the German GSDs....the German Dogs have a roach...despite the fact that the standard calls for an even topline. The AmBred dogs are overangulated in the hind quarters...but as far as their back goes they do meet the standard....in looking at the AKC standard where they dont meet the standard is the trot...it is supposed to be a smooth strong movement and in reality is a little wobbly. In terms of health the German Bred GSDs are also not any healthier...(the DDR dogs tend to be but they are not bred to a conformational standard but rather a working standard.) The SV allows a certain amount of HD to be bred into the dogs (I believe our equivalent of borderline / mild is acceptable in terms of breeding over there), and added to that their angulated back is not really something the breed was meant to have and I imagine it will lead to all kinds of spine issues in the future.

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That's what cats are for.
Cat's are wonderful...but they are not nearly as companion oriented as dogs are...they're not pack animals....they also cant read humans the way dogs can...in fact dogs are the most adept animal at reading human expression and emotion...more so even than primates.

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Old 05-10-2007, 12:32 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by eb4i View Post
My point with this particularstatement is that it appears that 'pure breed' supporters see it as fine to out cross and mix breeds when the result is/was thier breed of choice. But they get up in arms about the 'new hybrids'.
In the first place lets get this clear for the record; crossing two dogs of different breeds does not create a hybrid. Crossing a wolf or a coyote with a dog does create a hybrid! (Biology 101--look it up)

Creating a new breed is one thing and in many cases it has proven to be beneficial. However those who are producing first generation crossbreeds and selling them for outrageous prices cannot even remotely be considered ethical breeders who are creating a new breed. They're just producing and selling merchandise.

Though I'm not endorsing the breed or the breeder, here is an excerpt from the developer of the Alaskan Klee Klai which provides an insight into what goes into the attempts to create a new and lasting breed.

However after reading the story of how the breed came into being; I do believe they're on the right track; as long as future breeders stick to the original principles and the breed doesn't fall into unscrupulous hands.

The follwing are exerpts from the article written by the founder of the breed. As you can see she refers to originally outcrossing, meticulous record keeping, endless evaluations and relentless culling of litters. All of which are an absoulute must when developing a truly "new" breed.

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"The Alaskan Husky is a mixture of the best, and so was the creation of the Alaskan Klee Kai. I also added a small dose of Siberian Husky, and just the right amount of smaller dogs of similar conformation for developing my original stock."

"His words had been my silent belief all along, but now I followed them openly and religiously. He said, "Breed the best, and cull the rest." With my now larger gene pool I began to see results of this hard core approach quickly and this served as encouragement to be even stricter with my breeding program."

"Our long distance telephone bills became enormous as we charted information on each dog. Every puppy from every litter was carefully inspected for conformation, medical soundness and personality. The puppies were weighed, measured, and re-evaluated regularly. Fortunately, the majority of buyers respected our dreams of a genetically sound dog and were extremely helpful by following our guidelines. They sent pictures, called us to update information, brought their dogs to visit, and spayed or neutered at our recommendation. The Wasilla Veterinary Clinic, in Wasilla, Alaska, patiently answered my countless questions over the years and thus aided us in loading even more information into our bulging computer program."
To read the entire article go here: http://www.alaskankleekai.com/spurlin/history.htm
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Old 05-10-2007, 01:09 PM   #75
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Very well... let me clarify... your dog started out as a hybrid
Please do clarify that statement.

IMO Any breeder that claims to be producing hybrids by mixing breeds is not ethical or knowledgable about breeding and is deliberately providing false information.
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Old 05-10-2007, 01:10 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by eb4i View Post
Very well... let me clarify... your dog started out as a hybrid.
That depends on how far back you want to go. Depending on who you believe, they started as wolves, coyotes, jackals or whatever. WHicever dgs exhibited the traits that people were looking for were bred. This is not recent, there are 14 so-called "ancient breeds" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_dog_breeds that are very close to wolves in terms of their DNA.

But getting back to right reasons for breeding, I personally don't think that capitalizing on a fad is one of them. Sure, there are legitimate cases of people creating new breeds or even just mixing dog breeds to get a dog that will do a job that they feel no other dog can do as well.

The Labradoodle is a case where the intent was to produce a guide dog for people with allergies. The progress in getting this dog to "breed true" has been greater in Australia than in the US http://www.cfldoodles.com/breedhistory.html . My personal opinion is that if they had called it something like an "Australian Guide Dog" then US breeders would not have been so quick to jump on the bandwagon and create F1 mixes of Poodles and Labs.

And Lurchers are an example of deliberately mixing breeds (Scenthounds can smell game, Sighthounds can chase it) in the UK. In the southeastern part of the US, Rat Terriers, or "Feists" are bred to hunt vermin. Neither one of those is a recognized breed, and as far as I know owners and breeders are not looking to get them recognized either. To me it is legitimate because they are bred for a purpose.

Just my opinion.
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Old 05-10-2007, 01:26 PM   #77
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Dogs do not 'consider themselves' anything. They lack the capacity to reason in the third person.
Oh yes- they do!! Its not a 3rd person- its a operative in the breed.. Like shepherds are more likely to protect .. also with little body fat- less likely to body slam etc- a trait some breeds do..
I am out of this discussion.. I am tired of the sarcasium..

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Old 05-10-2007, 01:50 PM   #78
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Good post skunkstripe. The labradoodle is an excellent example of an attempt to create a new breed gone wrong.

The original breeders did keep careful records and had a legitimate goal in mind.

Once word got out, the uneducated and ignorant jumped on the bandwagon out of greed. Now there are so many misrepresented, overpriced, carelessly bred labradoodles out there that the original breeders attempts have most likely been a complete waste of time and effort.
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Old 05-10-2007, 01:54 PM   #79
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Hey Ebi - I thought I would mention that you need to go all the way back to the glacial period to find wolves in many breeds...including the GSD, rottie, dobe, hovawart, sighthounds, northern breeds, spitz breeds....pretty much the majority of today's breeds I think actually.

These wolves werent crossed into the breeds...rather they evolved into the wild dog. The progression was Canidaes into Medium Sized Wolves (probably indigenous to russia and sweden), Canis Lupus, and the Wild Dogs that aew the ancestors of the Spitz and Pincher breeds. Already you see the evolution from wolf to dog...this was between the tertiary and quarternary period.

In the Quarternary period you see the evolution from the Medium sized wolf into Canis Poutiatini and the evolution of Canis Lupus into Canis Fam. Inostranzewi and Leineri Struder.

They didnt start out as Hybrids, but rather as wolves that evolved into something else to fit their environment, which in all liklihood was working with their humans.

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Old 05-10-2007, 03:03 PM   #80
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This was a very good and informational post! Thanks Doberman.
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