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Old 04-04-2012, 03:12 PM   #51
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Ahhh Yes I've done the raising of my voice and change the tone on occasions too and yes it works a treat for example on what I call dirty Lyme Valley where there is a over whelming amount of discarded food boxes, wrappers etc I will grumble at her ( Deep Voice) Don't Touch and then it's a happy voice after that as high as I can muster ouch that hurt! LOL
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:06 PM   #52
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Hmm So when Iam redirecting my dog from doing something she shouldn't to something she should and she complys with the request and she gets a treat and praise I would say that's positive reinforcement because I made it fun On the hand I could smack her to redirect her bad behaviour but then that would cause pain and I would call this negative reinforcement Yes it may stop eventualy the unwanted behaviour which is the point of the excercise in the first place but, it would be cruel and incorrect to do this! Especialy as there is other kinder ways to get your dog to do something you have asked it to do
No, you aren't using the terms scientifically. Your smack would be an example of positive punishment. Positive because you added something, punishment because the thing you added decreased the behaviour.

Positive and negative mean adding or subtracting, they are not a value judgement on whether what you are doing is ethically acceptable.

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Old 04-04-2012, 04:18 PM   #53
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No, you aren't using the terms scientifically. Your smack would be an example of positive punishment. Positive because you added something, punishment because the thing you added decreased the behaviour.

Positive and negative mean adding or subtracting, they are not a value judgement on whether what you are doing is ethically acceptable.
Ok so by not doing anything about a dogs behaviour becomes a negative punishment then! Right so if you are kind and correct a behaviour through kind ways then this is also positive punishment?
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:42 PM   #54
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Ok so by not doing anything about a dogs behaviour becomes a negative punishment then! Right so if you are kind and correct a behaviour through kind ways then this is also positive punishment?
There is no such thing as a 'negative punishment'
Again...positive reinforcement reinforces a behavior by means of a tamgoble reward.
negative reinforcement reinforces a behavior by removing an unpleasant circumstance such as noise, heat, cold, whatever.

The underground fence uses punishment by giving a small shock to the dog via its collar being remotely activated when it crosses a boundary.
Reinforcement, wheter positive or negative, is the opposite of punishment, though I do not like the term punishment and that is why I use adverse stimulation. We are teaching, not punishing. Punishment is being sent to jail or having to stand in the corner for an extended period. Adverse stimulation is brief but potent.

I do not mean to cause any confusion. You know when you are rewarding your dog.
Kaos gets it because she has had similar experiences.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:10 PM   #55
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There is no such thing as a 'negative punishment'
Yes there is! Negative punishment is the removal of something the dog likes which reduces the frequency of a behaviour. The classic example is removing attention when a dog jumps up.

Punishment here just means something that makes a behaviour reduce. Reinforcement means something that makes a behaviour increase.

http://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/und...t-conditioning
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:33 PM   #56
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Yes there is! Negative punishment is the removal of something the dog likes which reduces the frequency of a behaviour. The classic example is removing attention when a dog jumps up.

Punishment here just means something that makes a behaviour reduce. Reinforcement means something that makes a behaviour increase.

Understanding the Four Quadrants of Operant Conditioning | Dogster

Absolutely agree. Negative punishment is used very frequently and effectively in dog training.

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Old 04-04-2012, 05:34 PM   #57
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Dave, this might be helpful to you in understanding:

Positive or Negative Reinforcement | LibertyWings.com
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:40 PM   #58
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Ok so by not doing anything about a dogs behaviour becomes a negative punishment then! Right so if you are kind and correct a behaviour through kind ways then this is also positive punishment?
No, you are still confused.

Not doing anything about a dog's behaviour is not training of any kind.

If you were to choose to withhold something the dog wants as a consequence for certain behaviour from the dog, then you might be using negative punishment - eg dog jumps up at people, in order to reduce the frequency of the jumping up behaviour (reducing behaviour is punishment) you might withhold (subtracting is negative - ) attention and eye contact (which is something the dog wanted at that time).

Positive reinforcement would be for example you choose to try to increase the frequency of sitting to greet people (increasing behaviour is reinforcement) by giving the dog a food treat or toy when it sits (adding something is positive +). Since sitting to greet is incompatible with jumping up you have solved the same problem in a different way.

If you were to try to decrease the jumping up behaviour by kneeing the dog in the chest, this would be an example of positive punishment. It is punishment because you are decreasing behaviour, and positive because the consequence was something you added.

Check out the link bunnyphone posted for full details on operant conditioning - and now JGLI's link too

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Old 04-04-2012, 06:14 PM   #59
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Ahhh Yes I've done the raising of my voice and change the tone on occasions too and yes it works a treat for example on what I call dirty Lyme Valley where there is a over whelming amount of discarded food boxes, wrappers etc I will grumble at her ( Deep Voice) Don't Touch and then it's a happy voice after that as high as I can muster ouch that hurt! LOL
Heeheehee, I can imagine happy voice...that's cute, wish I could imitate it

I quit smoking quite some time ago but my voice never recovered-I get mistaken for hubby or son on the phone sometimes-funny though at the dog park, even the big brutes will stop what they're doing when I call Sophie...guess doggies think deep is authorative...wacky dogs...
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:33 PM   #60
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I just wanted to say, thank you all!!!! NOW I get it....

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