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sadiepup 05-24-2010 08:23 PM

Split heat
My oh my

Sadie went into heat right around april 1st. I put her in a kennel and roughly 10 days later they called me and told me she is done! To my huge excitement because her last heat lasted about 25 days. I drove sadie home very happy to spend some quality time with her as I missed her so much.

I noticed a week later the swelling in her female parts did not go down like it had at the end of her last heat. I figured she was just being a teenager in puberty and refusing to give up on getting pregant.

3 weeks went by and the swelling had actually increased so I knew something was up. I thought for sure there was something terribly wrong. Then a little over four weeks from when I picked her up, she started bleeding like crazy again.

I thought at first she was ill or had bad diet, but I have been feeding her the usual food. I noticed a huge increase in urination and blood flow. I thought maybe she had somehow gotten pregnant in the kennel and was now having a miscarriage. Online I began researching miscarriages and came across a split heat. I believe sadie to be in a split heat.

She is a 50lbs blue nose pit bull. We kept her unspayed because that is what I was instructed to do by a veteran weight puller. He said keeping her unspayed until her second or third heat would insure her body developed to its full potential.

Has anybody dealt with a split heat before? My main concern is how long this second "true" heat will last for. Like if she already bled for 10 days does that mean this one be shorter or will it be a full month like a normal heat?

April 05-24-2010 09:45 PM

I have no knowledge of a split heat, but as this is her 2nd heat I would be getting her spayed a couple of months after she finishes. I was told to only have one heat as the risk of mamary cancer increases greatly from 8% after one heat to 23% - 26% with the 2nd & increasing with each successive heat.

Have you taken her to the vet?

white cat lover 05-24-2010 11:51 PM

I would also speak with your vet about this. If you don't intend to breed her, then usually the maximum anyone suggests letting them go into heat before spaying them is once. The more she is allowed to go into heat, the greater the risk for pyometria (uterine infection - can be deadly) & cancer.

sadiepup 05-24-2010 11:53 PM

my step mom is a vet/bulldog breeder and she is my main source of information. xshe says there is is nothing immediately threatening about a split heat. She is concerned however that spaying her during heat would kill her because she says sadie has the heaviest blood flow of any dog she has ever seen. What if I never get her spayed but dont breed her whats the risk of cancer then? My step mom said she also has never dealt with a split heat and she was not a great source of information. She basically said it happens to younger dogs and doesn't really mean anything.

sadiepup 05-25-2010 12:08 AM

okay so if spaying her now is going to put her at risk, what if i keep the option to breed her but never follow through? what if i keep her intact and dont decide to breed her untill i am financially able to support a pregnant bitch, and have a big house for the pups. Right now I live in an apartment, which I do not believe would be a responsible place to deliver a litter.

I also have had a mate in mind an intact gorgeous male purebred as well. The reason we decided not to mate was I read so much negativity online about breeding pits. I posted on another forum site my intentions and was scrutinized by every poster. I felt dumb and decided against it. But now in my current research I am seeing all of these pups in the pound are pit mixes. My girlfriend (sadie's mommy) seems to believe that some if not most are purebreds they just label them pit mix so people will be more likely to buy one. Anyway, if they are all truly mix breeds then that leads me to believe that there still is a market for purebreds and it might still be a good idea.

all in all i just want to do what is best for my dog (and best friend in the whole world). My original intentions were yes to mate her. Now I just want to make sure she will be ok, and do not feel either way about breeding her. It would be nice but if the puppies will all end up in the pound I obviously would not want to do it. If this is the case then it looks like spaying is out of the question with the increased risk. But will she be at risk if she keeps cycling and never gets pregnant? I know in wolf packs only the Alpha bitch will mate and none of the others will, so i think she will be just fine.

I would love some feed back.

k9capture16 05-25-2010 01:08 AM

Personally I would spay her. With all the poop going around with Pitbulls and the media why risk bringing puppies into this world that could end up in the wrong hands? Check with you city as some have laws regarding breeding these breeds. Now, onto spaying after her third heat. I would wait until shes done maturing which for a Pitter will be around 2. Spaying/Neutering before maturity can leave the dog predisposed to bones and joint issues as per the article below

Also if the female is spayed there is zero chance she will get pyrometra as they remove the uterus. Personally, the male I have now, I neutered him and kick myself in the head everyday about it. He was the first and the last I will ever fix. I will either own males or females (none at the same time), I prefer males anyway. This is only my take on it. Ask your vet about any negatives and I dont think they will tell you any. To me the only benefit neutering/spaying has for me is Birth Control. It eliminates Pyrometra in females and eliminates the less than 3% chance of your male getting testicular cancer. Here are a couple more links for you to read. I would still get her spayed around 2 years old. Dont breed her there are enough pure pitties and mixes in shelters as it is. I guarentee you if you ask any vet they will all tell you to spay or neuter, they claim health benefits and there are studies contridicting both, and money is involved..keep in mind vets are a business (not bashing vets but its true).

I may get chewed on for posting these links but since its my opinion ill post them for you to read. If you would like to hear about issues ive had with Lincoln after neutering PM me through the forum as I dont wanna carry this thread off topic...

applesmom 05-25-2010 02:28 AM

From the sound of your posts it appears that you've given the matter a lot of careful thought and have plenty of knowledgable folks to help you out with basic information. But there is still a whole lot more to learn!

It's estimated that half of the dogs put to death in shelters are pit or pit mixes; then there's the increased risk for breast cancer, pyometra etc, that has been mentioned in other posts. But there are other very important reasons to consider spaying her and allowing her be the great pet she is; rather than constantly struggling through erratic and potentially dangerous heats .

It's believed by; I think it's safe to say, by the majority of vets, that a bitch that experiences excessively prolonged heats may prove to be infertile. One reason being that the eggs may be too old by the time she is ready to mate. Also when there is excessive bleeding during the heat cycle the first thing vets suspect are ovarian cysts. Another possibility for the excessive bleeding could be von wildebrands (bleeding) disease. Something you most certainly wouldn't want to risk passing on to a litter of puppies. There is a simple test for VW which can easily be ruled out if you're determined to breed her.

As much as you care for her, I'm sure the last thing you'd want for her is to continue to put her at risk due to excessive bleeding or to suffer from multiple false pregnancies which tremendously increase the odds for pyometra and breast cancer. Or for her to suffer the the heart wrenching pain of previously undetected ovarian cysts. There are tests to rule out ovarian cysts and infertility, But since she is such a wonderful pet; why not just let her be a happy healthy dog without putting her and yourself through the heavy responsibilities of producing a litter of pups. Pups which due to the irresponsibility of some pet owners may wind up being put to death in shelters or carelessly used for breeding--or worse!.

Remember too; as great as potential puppy owners may seem at the time, you'd really have no control over their pup and it's welfare once they leave your care.

Good luck whatever you decide.

sadiepup 05-25-2010 04:01 AM

Thanks for all of the information. Was just on the phone with my step mom who said sadie was fully tested last weekend for everything when I brought her to Lisa's clinic. She said Sadie is very very fertile and there is no disease, infections, or cysts to worry about. She thinks breeding now and spaying at the end of pregnancy, or not breeding and spaying at the end of the heat, is the best for Sadie. (O and I forgot to ask her, and I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but will inducing pregnancy now stop or shorten the heat at all?). Lisa told me that the large quantity of discharge could be related to her extreme fertileness, who knows as long as my baby is healthy.

Another problem I ran into. It looks to me as if Sadie's mate is not a APBT, but rather is one of those American bullies. He is 65 pounds and has a 23" neck and about a two foot wide head, he is very stumpy (Kinda reminds me of Danny Devito). I am being told that American Bullies are inbred freaks and not real pit bulls. Granted they have been bf and gf since I adopted her, but if this is true about American Bullies being the hick inbreds of the dog world I know I don't want to reproduce them through my prize possession. The owner of patch (the stud) is telling me I don't know what I am talking about and that his dog is as purebred as Sadie (He even called me jealous). Patch's owner also has very high demands! He wants first pick male of the litter, say where half the litter ends up, he wants say on the price for his "half" of the litter, he demands Sadie eat Black Gold dog food, and also wants 50% of all profits.

My question. Even though he is my friend and I do not want to rip him off, if I do decide to breed with Patch, can he legally hold me responsible for all his demands? What if I breed dont sign any contract and be like here is your Dog its the runt thats all your getting that is breed standard... sorry bud. Could he take me to court?

sadiepup 05-25-2010 04:10 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Some pictures. Sadie is the Blue brindle, patch well has the big ol dog nuts and the patch on his eye. I think they would make gorgeous pups. That is the most current picture I have of patch he has filled out quite a bit since then and has that American Bully look about him.

skunkstripe 05-25-2010 08:24 AM

Hi sadiepup and welcome to the forum! :wave2:

Sadie is a lovely girl. Patch looks like he is built like a brick pagoda!

I can't help you with the one breed vs another aspects but as far as your friend insisting that you feed Sadie "Black Gold," he has say over who gets half of the pups etc it's a matter of whether or not there is a written contract. If you sign something and he can later prove you didn't abide by it, he will have a case for taking you to court. I can just imagine a judge's face when he/she has to preside over a lawsuit involving whether or not your fed Sadie according to the terms of a contract (and I can't imagine anyone actually suing over something like that) but if it is a question of monetary loss because your friend expected to be able to determine the fate of say four puppies with a value of $2000 each, it could get nasty.
I think ANYONE you get stud services from is likely to want some written agreement but you have to think about what terms you are prepared to accept.

Anyway good luck!

Draco 05-25-2010 11:53 AM

I co-own a stud Rough Collie where the breeder/handler arranges his breedings... I am GLAD to let her handle all of that. There is so much involved in breeding even a proven conformation Champion dog that it's hard to keep track of. And yes, the owner of the stud dog can absolutely claim first pick of the litter, it's very common.

Has Sadie been screened for inheritable issues known to the breed? Has Patch? You don't want to pass on detectable problems in the future. Honestly, were I in your shoes I would not breed her, I would have her fixed after her heat. Breeding correctly is a massive undertaking. To even reuse your terminology--breeding without full knowledge is how those 'hick' dogs come about. :)

Monkey 05-25-2010 12:07 PM

It's not a split heat, heat has three phases... 1. First week of bleeding about 7-10 days preparing for pregnancy. Then 2. High heat where the bleeding stops, and she can get pregnant. And then it's usually another week or two of bleeding. All and all about 21-28 days depending on the dog. So sorry the heat had not stopped nor splitted. It's a normal heat.

and yes you should wait to two years of age with a heavier breed to spay them for FULL body maturity as well as the grow plates to close. On bigger heavier dogs usually the grow plates in the legs don't fully close until around 18 months or so.

Due to this, if you have a male around Id be careful she might very well be pregnant. And IF You intend to do weightpull, Id wait for full maturity as well.

Also, I don't want to sound mean or anything, but have you ever gone to craigslist? There's a ton of bullies (pits, american, mixes) on a daily base who gets euthanaised cause of their breed.
I think they counted on that 8 out of 10 bulls (something like that) died within their first year. Shelters are overcrowded with dogs who don't have homes, and to breed more pitbulls or pitmixes when there is already so many unwanted ones I would not say it is ethical for anyone that loves the breed unless you have full on pedigree show/working dogs. That means that the dog is titled, temperamental tested, competed with, within show and for example weightpull with champion titles. To breed your dog just cause she's sweet and cute don't really cut it. It has to be prooven dogs to improve the breed and conserve it. To just breed any cute dog with another cute dog is not contributing to the genepool, esp since it will be a mixed breed, and you have many of them in the shelter already.

Here is an educational video, it's very sad but please watch it before you choose to breed. You can be one of the people who is truly responsible cause you seem like a very smart and caring woman. Or I don't think you would be here finding out more in the first place. If you choose to breed, please be careful where you place your pups and really think 2-3-4 times about it.
Here is the video, all sensitive people please do not click on link this is very sad and graphic I cry my eyes out every time I see it.

"The pit bull population has now risen to 40% of all the dogs in 12 shelters in Los Angeles. THAT MEANS THAT ALMOST HALF OF THE ENTIRE LOS ANGELES DOG POPULATION IS PITS OR PIT MIXES! Most are strays, tossed out like dirty laundry. It's heartbreaking."

In NY I suspect its even worse, when I have been in the shelter pulling a rescue or just visiting to give some food or toys. It's all pitbulls, one two rotts, and one two of other breeds.. Pits is one of my favorite breeds and I hate to see what people have done to them.

Oh and that mans umm demands for breeding, tell him to umm put that contract somewhere ;)
You can get a pure pitbull, with prooven genes, better stud material for less and then you will have pedigree pups which will increase the value of your offspring both for the breed and for yourself. Esp if you are going to put your bitch through the pain of birth, I have two friends who lost their dogs cause of bad birthcases and the vet could do nothing to save them.

Whatever you choose I wish you the best of you luck, I hope you will stick around DF and I wish you warmest welcome.

applesmom 05-25-2010 12:28 PM


Originally Posted by sadiepup (Post 326782)
Patch's owner also has very high demands! He wants first pick male of the litter, say where half the litter ends up, he wants say on the price for his "half" of the litter, he demands Sadie eat Black Gold dog food, and also wants 50% of all profits.

My question. Even though he is my friend and I do not want to rip him off, if I do decide to breed with Patch, can he legally hold me responsible for all his demands? What if I breed dont sign any contract and be like here is your Dog its the runt thats all your getting that is breed standard... sorry bud. Could he take me to court?

Is he serious, IMO that's not much of a friend! Does he think you just fell to earth from another planet?:eek: He does nothing but provide the sperm; you do all the work, put your dog at risk; spend hundreds of dollars on testing and vet bills, care for her during her entire pregnancy, whelp and raise a litter of puppies for 8 or 10 weeks and he expects to get half the profits and dictate what you feed her. That's absurd IMO! The standard stud fee among ethical breeders is equal to the sales price of just one puppy.

If you sign a contract like that; you bet he can take you to court! Hundreds of similar cases regarding dogs and breeding go to court every year and the judges don't take them lightly. To a judge it's about whether the contract is legal and binding and very little about the actual dogs (property) involved. A properly written contract will be upheld by a judge and then you'll have court fees to pay on top of giving half your litter (and your profits) away and having no control over what happens to them.

If you don't sign a contract he may not win in court but he can refuse to sign the registration papers and you'll have an entire litter of unregistered puppies. Unregistered pit puppies and pit mixes are being sold or given away on street corners in just about every city in the country every day. The statistics show that at least half of those puppies wind up being put to death in shelters.

It sounds from this side of the screen like Patch's owner must be one heck of a snake oil salesman if he can even manage to get anyone to consider such outrageous demands!

If you are determined to breed her; even though I get the feeling you aren't really that comfortable with the idea, there are literally thousands of stud dogs available that are every bit as good or even better than his. And their owners won't make outrageous demands in exchange for the use of their sperm.

One last comment and I'm done.

Please don't forget that the odds are tremendous that for every puppy you produce, another homeless pit somewhere will be put to death. Will the puppies you produce be so extraordinarily special that it's worth causing the death of another?

Cassidy 05-25-2010 04:57 PM

I'm all for responsible breeders that know what they're doing and are breeding for health and temperament (not money). But I do not agree with breeding a mutt. An American Bully is a mix of APBT and American Staffordshire Terrier, aka a mutt. We have plenty of pit bull mixes in shelters already in need of a home (which is why you have run into negative feedback). Take your dog to a vet for another opinion in addition to your stepmom's, spay your dog and enjoy her! Oh and then lose that friend!

HovawartMom 05-25-2010 07:35 PM


Originally Posted by sadiepup (Post 326777)
my step mom is a vet/bulldog breeder and she is my main source of information. xshe says there is is nothing immediately threatening about a split heat. She is concerned however that spaying her during heat would kill her because she says sadie has the heaviest blood flow of any dog she has ever seen. What if I never get her spayed but dont breed her whats the risk of cancer then? My step mom said she also has never dealt with a split heat and she was not a great source of information. She basically said it happens to younger dogs and doesn't really mean anything.

None of my 10 females,in France were,ever,spayed and none had cancer or puppies!.
We were extremely careful and none had heavy or split heats!.
If she has such heavy heats,I would spay her cos it's not worth the risk!.

sadiepup 05-26-2010 01:57 AM

Ok so if this is not a split heat how do I tell when the bleeding will stop? Her swelling has gone down a little and the discharge is clotting and getting much darker.

She wears an old (clean) pair of boxer briefs that I have converted into a little diaper with a paper towel as a pad when she is out of her kennel around the house. This is most the day. Because she has a way of being able to get the boxers off I keep her in the kennel while I am at work 9-5. I have also made every effort to stay away from male dogs by taking her out only at night/very early morning (usually between 11pm and 3 am) and we drive way outside the city to a secluded hiking trail for our walks. She gets about three hours of exercise then she spends the rest of the day inside with the exception of using the bathroom. I let her clean her area as much as possible and have been cleaning her hind legs where the blood drips on them careful not to get any of the dog soap near the vulva. I change her pad 2-3 times a day. She is free fed like always and has started to intake an increased amount of water.

I have bought a can of industrial strength carpet cleaner and have kept all friends and family (other than mommy of course) out of the house. We have put some ona fragrance eliminating blocks throughout the house, and I installed an ozone generator in our ducting system. I believe this will kill the smell and help keep unwanted males away. There are roughly 20 dogs in my complex and probably 100 of them on my block. I heard that up to a mile away the male can smell the heat so I would say that is probably close to 500 dogs that we are trying to keep away from her. It is very stressful in the city dealing with the heat.

Is there anything I could be doing to better her situation? I usually put her in the kennel for heats but here in Boston it has become impossible finding a kennel that will take a pit bull (Sadie's mommy and I just moved from hippie country Colorado). So I am very nervous that I am doing something wrong that will jeopardize Sadie's health. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

On another note, I was so sick of talking about Sadie her heat and possible future pregnancies and thought I couldn't take anymore, until I arrived home from work today to find about 10 different empty pregnancy test boxes (the human kind) in the trash. I found Emily hunched over a little stick in the bathroom, and couldn't believe it when she turned to me and said I'm pregnant. Man after all this wondering with sadie it turned out to be my girlfriend who needed my attention the most. After two heats with Sadie the Lord better bless me with a boy! (just kidding)

April 05-26-2010 05:52 AM

I was lucky with Tilba's 1st & only heat, she only spotted a day or 2 at a time, stopped & started again for another couple days. I would be getting her spayed in a couple of months giving everything inside her to settle down. My vet said she could have been spayed a week after the end of heat but I preferred to wait 4 mths. With Sadie it would depend how long it was between her 2 heats. As someone said, ditch your friend.

Most breeders I know only want the pick of the litter as a stud fee. Also, these days there are tests for the various diseases carried or passed on to the pups. I would not get a pup from a breeder that hadn't proof of such tests as well as hip x-ray scores.

k9capture16 05-28-2010 12:38 PM

Your friend is too picky. I co own a dog who the breeder choses who he breeds with. There is not restriction to what I have to feed him, but the breeder buys his food and I don't complain. She also doesnt make the owner of the female feed a certain thing either providing its not something like Dog Chow or Mainstay *gags*. Now as for requesting half the litter, I can sometimes see this happening. Now this is why, I only ever requested half the litter once. Now, we have put over $5,000 into this male..probably more. Now the price of one puppy is generally $800. So if the female has a litter of 8, I am only getting $800 to put back into the breeding program, so in a case like this I will request the price of 2 puppies, in a litter with 12 or more ill ask for 3. If they dont agree they dont breed to my male. I let the breeder handle that as I am known for my take it or leave tough luck attitude problem lol. So I can get grumpy. I would be careful about your friend requesting one male puppy. Sounds to me like he may breed mother and son together to profit. Dont walk away from He sounds like hes being greedy. Sorry but when I bred my one Mal before I decided to keep a female, but she was only kept to see if she would be a show prospect, but her pasterns were down (which is common in puppies and usually corrects itself), but she was going on 5 months and they were only slowly correcting and we didnt wanna risk her going into heat and breeding so I rehomed her to pet home pending pasturns correct. They did correct and she is currently in the show ring and has been bred once.

Your walking on hot very careful. There are lots of people who will say anything to get a puppy. Let me tell you something. When I had the last litter, I had a lady apply for a puppy. All 5 references she included checked out. On my contract it states the dog will never be tied outside...must be an indoor dog as I dont believe in outside dogs (I am soo against that). I did a house check on her and found out the dog lived outside 90% of the time, was fed table scraps, no vet care, no nothing. Played with rocks and twigs. She breeched the contract, so I took the puppy and walked away after I had the neighbour sign a witness statement that the dog was outside all the time and never brought inside. She called me I told her why the puppy was taken and she didnt even try to argue with me. See? this person on the outside checked out fine, I did a house check, nice house, nice floors, clean and well kept...she signed saying the dog would be inside..she lied and breeched the her loss. I dont stand for that, everytime I drive by a house with an outside dog for whatever reason I cry and get so fed up and pray that dog finds a better owner. By outside I mean outside 24/7...IMO there is no correct way to keep an outside dog as they are pack animals. I have a kennel in my yard at the side of my garage. If its nice outside and I have to run to the store I will put them outside in it for an hour. So they arent cooped in the house. Like today I went to shop and they were out there for the house I was biggie.

Personally I would spay her, I am against spaying and neutering but I would hate to see pitbull puppies brought into this world when here are plenty already. Why not try to rescue a litter rather than breed?

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