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Old 07-02-2011, 05:02 PM   #1
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Hello Everyone!
I'm hoping for some advice. I'm a breeder of Bordoodles (Border Collie x Poodle mix) and I am really trying to figure out how to place more of my pups into agility homes. The ones that are in working homes are doing fantastic, but I get so few calls looking for that. Most end up in pet homes, which isn't the end of the world, but we would love some agility competitors to have our dogs.
We have a website and we use google adwords for advertising, but still, most calls are for pets.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to better reach the agility community?
Thanks a ton!
Amanda

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Old 07-02-2011, 07:01 PM   #2
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I'll be honest. Most serious agility competitors understand dog genetics, and understand that when you breed two breeds together, genetics doesn't "work" that you get the best of both breeds in the dog. Genetics flat don't work that way.

Because of this, breed mixes like a poodle and BC cross would probably not appeal to many of the serious competitors. We would be looking at either a true mix OR the genetic stability in a well handled pure bred line. For instance, I went to a very well known line of Performance Shelties for my dog so that I would have the stability of that wonderful personality AND the structure I was looking for. And I got EXACTLY what I knew the line produced. You get this through decades of careful handling of the genes.

Breeding a Poodle to a BC only means I may get a dog with a BC coat but a poodle attitude and structure. OR I could get a BC attitude and coat with a Poodle structure. OR I could get...well...the combinations are endless. But I wouldn't know for sure what I would possibly wind up with.
With the line of shelties I went with, I got EXACTLY what I knew that line produced. While there still is some genetic variation that can occur, the chance of that variation would be greatly lessened, if it's from a well bred and well handled line.

You're market would also be limited. For instance, if someone wanted a BC, they wouldn't be interested in a BC/Poodle mix because the poodle's fun and goofy personality (which I love) would possibly influence the intensity and hard work ethic of the BC. So BC people would stick with BCs. I COULD see poodle people interested in the poodle attitude with some of the BC work ethic. However, I also know of some INCREDIBLY impressive Poodle lines, and if I were a Poodle person, I'd be all over those Poodle performance lines rather than looking for a BC/Poodle mix. I mean, some Poodles out there have HUGE drive and work ethic!!

If "designer" breeders wish to make a new breed with the careful selection of genetics between a BC and Poodle over years and years, that's fine. But most dog savvy people understand that mixing two breeds does not make a "new" breed, but rather a mix with HUGE genetic variables that make purchasing such an agility prospect risky. When we look for a dog, we are looking for the best lines that will give us the best chance of producing n agility performer. Most of us aren't interested in being the TOP performer, but a dog that we can have fun with.

See I only can have four dogs in my city, so if I get a mix of two pure breds with greater genetic variables, I am then having a greater chance of not getting an agility perfomer. i would, of course, love the dog for who he is. And then if I wanted to do agility, would have to go looking for another dog. It doesn't take long to have your four dogs taken up with retired dogs, non performers or dogs with structure that wouldn't stand up to agility over the years. When choosing an agility prospect, attitude AND structure are what we look for.

I have two dogs who cannot due agility due to retirement and structure. I LOVE these dogs, and do obedience with one of them. The other is a rescue who couldn't stand the stresses of the show ring, and I retired her at a young age when I realized she loved back yard agility, but hated the ring. I love both of these dogs and would NEVER get rid of them. So if I want to do agility, I need to be super careful that the pups I pick out for my other two dog "slots" CAN meet the requirements of the sport AND stay safe structure wise through out their careers. So, I go to proven gene pools for those lines. And they have never failed me.

Some agility competitors love the mixes, but they are looking pretty much for "true" mixes. They believe in the hybrid vigor argument, so they are looking for a good mixed gene pool. They are not looking for a "mix" of two pure breds.

So where do you advertise? Well.... if you are breeding, all of your pups should be asked for BEFORE they even hit the ground. You shouldn't HAVE to be advertising. None of the performance breeders I know ever advertise their performance dogs. There's no need. Word of mouth does it for them. They also have long waiting lists for their dogs. They get this rep through showing their own lines. If you have one or two super fantastic dogs out there doing agility, then the word will spread if they are that good. If it doesn't spread, then perhaps they're nice agility dogs, but not something a competitor would go really seek out. Remember, only the super best genetic lines should be bred.

Remember, you can go get a good agility dog at your local shelter. AND for every pup bred by a breeder, a pup in the shelter is killed. Sad, but true. Therefore, I think only EXCEPTIONAL lines should be bred. A mix of a Poodle and BC really won't attract most knowledgable agility enthusiasts.

The only true market you may have are those who don't really understand genetics or performance lines. These would be the "newbies" to the sport. There are a few in the sport who are into cross bred mixes, but in my area of the country, I only know of one - out of hundreds and hundreds of competitors. I'm not slamming mixes. They are great, and some FANTASTIC agliity dogs are mixes. But mix folk are out there looking for MIXES - not designer dogs.

When I pay for a pure bred dog, I am paying for a well handled genetic line. Period. I'm paying for attitude, structure and type. i would never pay for a cross mix because the genetic variables then get too crazy. Then I am not paying for a well handled genetic line, but a potential of a million variables.

So again, where do you look to advertise? Well, if your dogs are absolutely fantastic - and one or two are out there, then the agility folks will come. If they aren't coming, then perhaps you need to evaluate how wonderful they are as agility dogs. And I personally would never get a performance dog from someone advertising. I want to SEE the proof of the pudding in the ring.

I'm not meaning to sound horribly rude, but this is the truth.
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Old 07-02-2011, 07:12 PM   #3
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Excellent response.

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Old 07-02-2011, 11:34 PM   #4
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I echo Agility's above reply. Where I work we have loads of students at all levels of agility taking classes. The bulk of them are pure breeds from well know lines, the mixes are almost exclusively dogs gotten from adoption rather than designer dogs purchased for that reason.

Like Agility the city I live in has a limit of 5 dogs, thus my performance dog number is limited. My most recent is a 10 month old Collie purchased (at 8 weeks) from a breeder who has a critical eye for balance in her dogs. She wants stable temperaments, solid structures, and her dogs to be versatile. There is a wait list spanning the continent for her puppies; homes exist (both show/performance and pet) before she even considers breeding a litter. She has both Conformation and Performance dogs running like wildfire through her line. You cannot get this from mixing Border Collies to Poodles; sorry, nature just does not work that way.

There are a lot of dogs out there already in need of homes, step back and take a look at your dogs from a more critical perspective... are they the cream of the crop (as hard as it is ignore the emotional attachment)? If they TRULY are, you should be breeding pure not wasting it on the gamble of a unpredictable mix if you want the agility market. If they aren't the absolute best, you probably shouldn't be breeding them even as a pure line.

I also do not want to come across rude... but these are lives we're talking about. This is far from a light subject.
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Old 07-03-2011, 12:15 AM   #5
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You made several assumptions about me, my breeding, and my buyers that are not true. I understand you don't want a Bordoodle, but you aren't my market. Maybe I should have written a novel to introduce my self, my history, my breeding, and my philosophy so that I would have been understood more clearly.

Just so we all understand each other, I am not some backyard breeding ignoramus. My co-breeder and I have been in the show world for many years, with many breeds, showing in many venues (conformation, agility, obedience, herding, lure coursing, dock diving, you can pretty much name it and we've competed in it). Our dogs (several different breeds) have won many Nationals and have titles on both ends. My co-breeder is an AKC Breeder of Merit. We are both dog trainers. (Not me so much anymore because I have little kids and no time!) We extensively health test our breeding stock. More than most breeders out there. What I am trying to get across is we are not the run of the mill "designer" breeder. We stay up to date on current scientific studies by going to seminars and having our vets look into new research. I want to make that all clear because I don't like people to immediately assume we are bad breeders just because of what we breed... please look more at how we breed if you are to judge us.

So, let me clear up some of your misinformation.

1) First, I realize and I make it clear to my buyers that a litter of Bordoodles can vary considerably. I do not hide that fact and it is actually something that people enjoy. They like that some come out more Poodle and some more Border and some in between. We Volhard Temperament Test our puppies and place them in the homes they need. Surprisingly, there isn't as much variation in temperament as you would expect, but I think that is because our male poodle is exceptional. This sire also produces consistent low to non-shedding coats unlike some poodles we have weeded out from our program. We NEVER get a Border coat using this stud... and if some fluke happened and we did, we would be honest about it.

2) "breed mixes like a poodle and BC cross would probably not appeal to many of the serious competitors" This is not really true, although using the word 'many' makes it hard to disprove since it is subjective. In the short amount of time we have been doing this cross we have had serious competitive buyers from 3 different countries PLUS a buyer who plans on using the dog on a major TV show as her current dog is about to retire. I don't think they are for everyone, but they are certainly for some... Those who want a small BC who doesn't shed or shed much are in heaven with our dogs. Yes, some lose drive which is why we temperament test (and place those in pet homes).

3) "You're market would also be limited" This is for SURE untrue. I get about 2-5 inquiries A DAY for Bordoodles... and they aren't from people who want a BC or a Poodle. They are almost 95% former (or current) BC owners that are done with BC's because they want smaller and less shedding.

4) I have never claimed this to be a new breed. It isn't. It is a mix. A mutt. Whatever you want to call it. I don't think that I want to develop it into a breed because I've seen where that goes... I may change my tune, but not now.

5) "When choosing an agility prospect, attitude AND structure are what we look for" I agree. That is why #1 mom and dad are conformation champions (and we evaluate puppy's structure) and #2 AGAIN we temperament test. We don't just throw people in with a bunch of cute puppies and say, "so which is your favorite?" All puppies are cute but they aren't all agility stars...

6) "Some agility competitors love the mixes, but they are looking pretty much for "true" mixes. They believe in the hybrid vigor argument, so they are looking for a good mixed gene pool. They are not looking for a "mix" of two pure breds."
I honestly don't know what you are saying here... a "true" mix because they believe in hybrid vigor but don't want purebred parents? First of all, hybrid vigor doesn't apply to mixed breed dogs. It is a load of baloney that "designer" breeders have hoisted on the public to make people want to buy their dogs. A mutt can't be a hybrid. A hybrid would be like breeding a dog to a wolf, not a dog to a dog. I make it a point to explain that to everyone... it drives me crazy! The only real health benefit with mutts comes in the first generation cross. This simply exists because many genetic disorders are breed specific so with two different breeds as parents, you avoid some of these recessive traits... Well, that is all fine and dandy except that most breeds share problems like hip dysplasia... Mutts are NOT immune. The most important thing for any breeder of any breed is to HEALTH TEST your breeding stock! If you start breeding the mutts to the mutts, you lose the benefit of the mix because now both sides can be contributing the bad recessive genes... But again HEALTH TEST people!

7) As far as needing advertising versus word of mouth... EVERY breeder no matter how wonderful they are, had to advertise at the beginning of their career. Everyone starts out as a newbie/novice whatever at some point. The day you start breeding you don't have people knocking down your door because your pups haven't made it out there yet... Bordoodles are a fairly new thing for us. We primarily breed Goldendoodles. And guess what... those are sold WAY before they are born. I have deposits for pups all the way until next year! That is because we have been there done that and we do have a name for ourselves now... but Bordoodles are newer and as such the ones in working homes haven't entered the competition ring yet. So for now, my only option is to do what I am doing, which is to ask advice on how to get the word out.

8) You are right. You can get a good agility dog at a shelter and for every dog I breed one is killed... But guess what. You bought from a breeder. You could have saved one from a shelter but you didn't... What it comes down to is everyone has the right to choose the dog they believe is best for them. I would NEVER own a Sheltie, but I don't begrudge that you love them. They just aren't for me.
This isn't a matter of only Purebreds are worthy because they don't end up in shelters... guess again. My dogs do NOT enter shelters. They are all sold on contract and are microchipped.


I suppose I thought it was stating the obvious that once a breeder's pups are in the ring, people would notice. Maybe I should have been clearer. What I want to know is, prior to that happening, is there anywhere (forums, websites, etc) that I could put the word out (and hopefully a place that we would not be judged for breeding a *gasp* mix.)

So, any helpful advice here would be appreciated. I hope I didn't come off as snippy... that is certainly not what I want, but I do get my feather's ruffled when people make assumptions about me.
Thanks,
Amanda

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Old 07-03-2011, 01:35 AM   #6
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First, I agree with you on "hybrid vigor." However those that I know who love mixes do not agree with us. They get the mix because THEY believe in hybrid vigor. I could go off on why I disagree with it, but I won't.

Although you are doing much right in your breeding, I will never agree that designer dogs should be bred. As I stated before, when I pay money for a performance dog, I am paying for the stability of the gene pool. I am paying to get something similar to what I've seen that line produce. You are asking people to pay for an unstable gene pool and a dog that will have a ton of variables. Isuspect your agility market will be very small because of this.

And all novice performance breeders I'm associated with (and I have a few in my agility training school) all have buyers for their pups from the first litters on and do not advertise. So, no. If the sire and am are out in the ring earning a name for themselves, people line up - even for the test litters. I've seen this happen over and over and over. Is the sire ripping up the agility ring? Because that's where you advertise. My young shetlie is neutered, but if I were to breed him, I guarantee, the litter would all have homes before they were even bred. Why? Because he's proven himself in the agility ring and his line is well known. I've had tons of requests for his pups. Impossible of course, and not something I would ever be interested in doing. My older MACH4 sheltie has the same story with a ton of requests for pups, but he too is neutered. My point is, if your sire and dam are proven in the ring, you don't need to advertise.

And I never even suggested that only mixes wind up in shelter. Why do we have breed rescues if that's the case? My point simply is why breed for a mixed gene pool when the whole idea of purchasing a dog outside of the shelter system is to get the stable gene pool and line you have studied, and when you are looking for "purpose."? Otherwise, the world is populated with great mixes AND pure breds (of mostly unknown lines) that need good homes.

Obviously you are educated enough to know why I am against designer breeds without me having to get harsh and specific, and you know any argument you make for them will not change my mind. The simple fact remains - if I want a variable gene pool, I have tons of wonderful mixes and pure breds of unknown lines to chose from in the shelter system. Paying for a variable gene pool does not make sense. I see no advantage to your poodle/bc crosses or any other designer breed.
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Old 07-03-2011, 01:47 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by SafariDoodles View Post
I want to make that all clear because I don't like people to immediately assume we are bad breeders just because of what we breed... please look more at how we breed if you are to judge us.
One more thing, you sound shocked that anyone would take offense at a designer cross breeding. And the fact that you call them "Borderdoodles" is indeed a "Designer" name. But you are educated enough to know how EXTREMELY controversial these often pricey "designer" mixes are. Therefore, I know you surely expected to get debate and disagreement with your breeding program.

This isn't a new topic and even many dog "newbies" know the controversy about designer breeds. The fact that you posted your link to your page to advertise (which was removed by the moderator) suggests that you didn't post here to really find out where to "advertise" but indeed, to do that precise thing using this forum. If I were a breeder, I wouldn't want my pups to go to homes found through stranger connections on the internet. I'd want them to go to proven homes through my dog friend network. That's what all of my newbie breeder friends do - before the pups are even bred.
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Old 07-03-2011, 02:02 AM   #8
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... I get about 2-5 inquiries A DAY for Bordoodles... and they aren't from people who want a BC or a Poodle. They are almost 95% former (or current) BC owners that are done with BC's because they want smaller and less shedding...
If this is true, why do you need to advertise? Secondly, I do not believe for a second that the cross will automatically shed less. Just like the (hate to use these designer dog terms but...) Goldendoodle, Labradoodle... just about anything doodle or -poo, I have seen a 75% ratio of them leave gobs of hair in the kennel each day. I work with a wide variety of dogs and see a pretty good amount of these intentional mixtures. Save for two shedless breeds mixed I cannot say I have witnessed evidence of '-oodles' designer dogs bearing such a trait with anything resembling reliability.

I also own a Border Collie; yes, he sheds, but not horribly. Nothing a good brush and vacuum cleaner doesn't take care of.
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Old 07-03-2011, 12:57 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by agilityk9trainer View Post
One more thing, you sound shocked that anyone would take offense at a designer cross breeding. And the fact that you call them "Borderdoodles" is indeed a "Designer" name. But you are educated enough to know how EXTREMELY controversial these often pricey "designer" mixes are. Therefore, I know you surely expected to get debate and disagreement with your breeding program.

This isn't a new topic and even many dog "newbies" know the controversy about designer breeds. The fact that you posted your link to your page to advertise (which was removed by the moderator) suggests that you didn't post here to really find out where to "advertise" but indeed, to do that precise thing using this forum. If I were a breeder, I wouldn't want my pups to go to homes found through stranger connections on the internet. I'd want them to go to proven homes through my dog friend network. That's what all of my newbie breeder friends do - before the pups are even bred.
I'm not shocked that you would take offense. I'm shocked that you would highjack a question I believe to be legitimate to preach on your soapbox. If you truley believe that the only way for me to place a puppy into a working home is by word of mouth, that is all you needed to say. I did not put my link to advertise, I placed my link because I always place my link with my name so that people know who I am. I didn't realize it was forbidden as the agreement I made when I signed up for this site did not say that. I do apologize that I must have overlooked the rules somewhere.

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Old 07-03-2011, 01:14 PM   #10
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If this is true, why do you need to advertise? Secondly, I do not believe for a second that the cross will automatically shed less. Just like the (hate to use these designer dog terms but...) Goldendoodle, Labradoodle... just about anything doodle or -poo, I have seen a 75% ratio of them leave gobs of hair in the kennel each day. I work with a wide variety of dogs and see a pretty good amount of these intentional mixtures. Save for two shedless breeds mixed I cannot say I have witnessed evidence of '-oodles' designer dogs bearing such a trait with anything resembling reliability.

I also own a Border Collie; yes, he sheds, but not horribly. Nothing a good brush and vacuum cleaner doesn't take care of.
You are again making judgements and not reading what I wrote... You only want to believe the worst in me so that is what you will believe. I need to advertise for AGILITY homes. I could place them all quickly if I just picked the random people who approach me. But guess what. I am picky about my buyers. I interview people. So I may get tons of inquiries a day but they aren't all the right homes. If I'm not selective about my buyers my pups will end up in a shelter and then you really would have reason to bash me.

As for the shedding, I addressed this as well. You are right that adding a poodle doesn't automatically make non-shedders or low shedders. It has to be the right poodle. Anyways, I don't want to write it all over again so just read what I wrote the first time. If you want to see some real data collected about the shedding rate of Goldendoodles and Labradoodles check out this website: Labradoodle & Goldendoodle Database
This isn't my website, I'm not advertising so hopefully it doesn't get removed. But it is a database of information that is being collected from doodle owners about how much their dogs shed and how bad the allergy is to them. You'll notice Labradoodles are much higher shedders than Goldendoodles.

So anyways, I'll say it again. Please, don't make this a debate about the virtues of Purebreds. That isn't my purpose. You answered my question in a round about way, so thank you for that. I think we can agree to disagree on pretty much everything and the great thing about life is you don't have to love doodles and I don't have to love shelties.

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